Vintage / classic car track days?

I'm buying my first old car. I enjoy racing and track days, and spend a lot of time instructing. If there's one thing you can be sure of, 300+hp is about the buy-in to not be a speed bump at any modern track days.

Are there any vintage motorsports events to be had, short of vintage racing? I don't want to turn my weekend pretty day cruiser into a dedicated race car. I also don't want to be roadkill in my fancy-pants-vw-upside-down-bathtub when the track day parade of GT-Rs, Z06s, M3s and 997s steamroll me.

I recently got an invite to a Summit Point "Friday at the Track" event geared toward older, small bore cars. Some places are recognizing the need for this, but how many are actually doing it I can't say.

Following this... I'm in the same boat with my Mini. Its little 997 engine loves to scream, so it would be fun on a track, but I also agree about the 'getting run over' concern. Hard to do point-bys with sliding windows...

Some track days offer separate run groups for slow/medium/fast groups... sign up for the group that fits best...

I think the slowest car at the track days around me is a 250hp turbo Miata. Is it just me, or have track days turned into something where only the rich kids get to play?

Here is a random shot going down into T1 at Barber from the track day last Saturday.

I've got the same complaint. I really like heading to the track in older cars as well, and truthfully, don't want to spend huge sums to go play. The last one I went to (with a 240Z)I was one of the fastest cars in the corners, but slowest on the straights. I had a modified M3 behind me and could pull him by about 10 car lengths on corner exit, but he'd be all over me at the end of the straights. I finally let him by, but that was a huge mistake as he was a slug in the corners and his entry sucked.

I'm not sure when track days became an arms race, but I miss taking the MR2 or Miata out for a fun day and not being a chicane.

Glad it's not just me. I see this becoming a niche in the track day market over the next ten years. When any bro can get a Z06 or E46 M3 for under $15k, track days just aren't what they used to be.

Will the enjoyment of driving a small bore car be lost on a whole generation?

How would one define a small bore / vintage run group when pitching it to an HPDE club?

Bore size? HP:LB? Year?

Maybe just classify IAW a qualifying time set at the beginning of the day, or some type of ranking at the track or club. So the slower guy, runs with the slow group regardless of car type. Just a thought.

Leo

When I was more involved with the Alfa club, many of the cars that showed up for track events were pretty vintage, and speeds thoughout were not too bad. I could hold my own in the top class with the gold car you see.

maybe find a local 'vintage'-ish club that does track days?

In reply to Tyler H:

Yeah,

That looks like a really diverse group! I can see a Mini would fit right in.

I've been thinking about this more since I posted last. There's something about a low hp momentum car that can really improve your driving. It's a skill set that can never develop if you start with a mega hp car. Horsepower can mask a lot of driving problems, especially if you are on track with a lot of other high hp cars with drivers that aren't fully up to speed. I agree with Tyler H, the cost of hp these days is so low, it's easy to get on track with a car we couldn't even dream about 15 years ago.

I remember when I bought my MR2 Turbo, I thought 200hp was a ton. At a track day once, I ran a few laps in it after our ITS 240Z, and it turned a faster lap time stock, on stock tires. These days, even the MR2 is a chicane compared to say a C5 ZO6.

I run a Datsun 1200 at vintage races and instruct at PCA track days, I also instruct as do some friends who run Spec Miata, we all instruct and run the intermediate group as that is where we are lap time wise. My car with the 1171cc engine was belting out 80 hp at the wheels, the big bore 1508cc is belting out around 100 at the wheels (car is 183 with me in it). You do not need a 250-300hp car, you might need to switch run groups as yes in the fastest group the lap times are much faster.

For example at the last track day out of about 20 cars I was around 5 or 6th fastest in the intermediate group. I passed a couple of WRX STI's, Audi RS4, M3, Porsche 911s etc. In fairness the drivers are not as skilled or experienced. Part of the problem is they've never spent time in a lower power car (nothing really wrong with that, who doesn't want a nice car) and as such they don't really understand momentum. You do get the classic, stand it on the brakes, over slow the entry, no clue about rotating the car etc but it is a track day so in general they wave you past. There is also the (twisted, petty, small) satisfaction of catching and passing cars that should leave you behind. When I road raced bikes I ran little 125cc GP bikes and I always enjoyed guys on GSXR 750s and the like trying to figure out how you were 3-4 seconds a lap faster at a place like Willow Springs.

From an instructor standpoint a gutless car is a great tool; I've taken several students for rides in my 1200 and a friends Spec Miata, the usual comments are "wow, I had no idea that you could do that with a car" or my favorite of all time "man I have so much to learn, I need leave my car stock and learn to drive it".

While I like things with big power I find I enjoy pedal cars more because of the old adage driving a slow car fast. It also reminds me of riding little GP bikes, you need to be a complete animal skating it through the corners and really think several corners ahead.

As for Vintage cars I think they are more fun as well, at the last PCA day a Cayman drive made a comment about my 4 wheel drifting the car through a 90 mph kink. He said that his thought was that guys got a big pair, I brush it off with the I used race bikes comment but my first thought is doesn't everyone drive that way??

Sorry to be so verbose but if you want to run a vintage car or Miata or MR2 there is no reason not to, just run it in a group with similar lap times. Again it's a track day and we are not racing anyone, even I dial it back just a little for track days.

 Tom

How about starting with a vintage autocross? I know you can run anything at a regular autocross. However I have a friend who would bring out her 2CV if she knew other ridiculous cars would be there. She isnt going to run it in an event full of 'vettes and Evos.

Just what you asked for:

Lake Garnett Grand Prix Revival

http://www.lggpr.org/

I will be there working corners, but its just too far for me to drive.

I haven't done a track day in about a year (and that is killing me) but when I was first doing them, I drove a 1985 BMW 528e. That's the slowest E28 they sold in the states if you ignore the diesel. Loved it, it taught me how to hang on to what little momentum it generates. When I was about on my way out of the beginner group, I was consistently getting point-bys from much more powerful cars. At some point after I was in the intermediate group, I got a Z4M coupe, and found some really weird things. The guys who can drive really well move into the advanced group pretty quickly, and not all of those guys have high-buck machinery. Sometimes the intermediate group had more expensive cars than the top runners. I remember once sharing the intermediate group with a then 6 month old GTR with significantly more power than stock and a Viper ACR that was trailered in by a guy with a full race suit. Needless to say, they passed me as easily as they did the AE86 Corolla that was also in the group. I do remember that GTR only being able to run for 10 minutes at a time before overheating the transmission, and the Viper spinning into the outfield grass about once a session.

Being passed is just part of the game. In the advanced group, having to drive off line in order to get by is part of the fun, and about the only thing left to learn at that point.If you want to learn to keep momentum in a fast car, try only using 4th gear, that simulates a slow car pretty well. If you want to share the track with cheaper machinery, try going to a cheaper track. Not saying you won't see a viper at Nelson Ledges, but you're not likely to share the track with a Tudor car or Indy light like you might at Mid-Ohio.

@billball at out local autocross we have an 3 240/280Zs, a 510, my 1200, a Toyota Starlet, MG Midget and some a couple of other old oddball entries.......it is Vegas after all.

Our local track intermediate group is a mix of instructors in spec Miatas, Civic, Integras etc and Porsches, Vettes and WRXs in street trim with intermediate drivers. Some of the guys could go up to the advanced group but it is full of race prepped cars (Radicals, 911s, STIs etc)

 Tom

You know, I think I wrote a column about this for Grassroots Motorsports a while ago. Yes, track days have become a bit of an arms race. Personally, I'd love to see some kind of open-passing group for experienced drivers of lower-horsepower cars. If there's a demand, then maybe one day we'll see it.

In reply to David S. Wallens: That's what is going on at the Lake Garnett Revival. Plus an autocross for the less adventurous

Cool. And maybe the cutoff is around 200 horsepower. 150?

My solution: Weigh 1000lbs less and stay on tighter tracks where you have an advantage and can hound the hell out of new BMW drivers!!!

Boom!! no more BMW's!!

It is fun to run the older cars on the track. I love my 924. Not only am I the only one running around, I also get the Kudo's for driving it. Would it be nice to not constantly be watching my mirrors? Yes. Do I mind. I have not seen a club where it is only older, small bore cars for track days. The Porsche Club encourages the old cars to come out, and the 1morelap.com guys I ran with once this year also welcomed me to the group.

My end take on this. Show up, pay the entry and go out and have fun.

I'm a vintage racer with my 2002. I am just a few seconds off Spec Miata times on more technical tracks and a few more on open tracks. I'm a good driver but a better driver would narrow the gap some. I also run my car in SCCA events in FP and although not competitive with the national class guys, I am faster than the best HP cars. Vintage cars can run pretty well on track days with most cars but you have to have the car prepared to compete to match a more modern stock car. All that being said, I would highly recommend vintage racing. It is the most fun you can have with an old car, bar none!

I just purchased a 1988 BMW E30 NASA GTS2 with a M50, non vanos motor built in 2007ish. This will not easily fit into any class/group but I will have a car ready to run on the track. After having auto-x for years, starting in 1980, I now have an entry to tick off the bucket list of tracks that Speed ventures and the BMW club have their events.

At some point someone/group will recognize the car as vintage.

jr02518 wrote: I just purchased a 1988 BMW E30 NASA GTS2 with a M50, non vanos motor built in 2007ish. This will not easily fit into any class/group but I will have a car ready to run on the track. After having auto-x for years, starting in 1980, I now have an entry to tick off the bucket list of tracks that Speed ventures and the BMW club have their events. At some point someone/group will recognize the car as vintage.

With a period correct motor I believe HSR and SVRA already do provided it has the necessary safety gear.