The cars of the 20-40 have clearly already gone through the loss of the "I remember them when I was young" phase. What are the prices like on those these days. Is a Model A worth anything if it's not pristine?
(bringing this thread back up since it's pretty significant)
"But on the other hand, don't expect to find a cheap XKE, Big Healey, Ferrari or Maserati. They'll always hold value regardless of where they're being sold."
Right now, my interest is in getting scooping up a nice clean mid-ninties Vette and probably a 914 as a project. It honestly looks like I could sell my '09 Mustang and be able to afford both. Even if I got close, it's still pretty amazing that the prices are now just SO affordable.
Might spell the end of the car hobby as it is today, but still . . . if I'm driving around in the car(s) of my choice, ones that I've always wanted, and the rest of those old snobs at the cruise nights are dead or just gone, so what?
Who really cares? Honestly, why would I care a bit about the "hobby" and those that are banking coin off of it, when I'm living large,enjoying an afternoon drive, sun on my face and wind in my hair?
Things come and go, ebb and flow. The natural order of it all. If I'm driving a nice Vette when it's all said and done, TERRIFIC ! And there sure are a TON of them here in New England, selling for WAY short money and even less if I just wait a minute.
In reply to aircooled:
Apparently prices are very regional. Around here any Model A is quite popular. Also almost any old tractor is worth several times more than a new one would cost. The same for three window pickups.
Mustangs, we've a ton of them & they better be perfect. However, perhaps because they were made here, any Edsel is considered a prize.
WOW !
Rupert, you seem to be living on "Alternate Earth." The one that revolves around the Sun exactly opposite to this one, so we never see it and aren't aware of it, and everything is different over there.
You can't get rid of an A to save your life around here, tractors are unknown, pick-ups are all big Ford Diesels, and Edsels are a punchline.
We really DO live in 11 different Americas !
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497613/Which-11-American-nations-live-The-map-shows-U-S-divided-separate-cultures-settlers-spread-West.html
This thread has prompted me to start regularly checking the local CL just to see what keeps getting reposted, with price drops, to get a feel for the market. I am in FL so I am hoping that people will begin offloading their classics when they can no longer drive or afford them (sounds kind of mean when I put it that way, but I want to enjoy them too 
).
aircooled wrote: The cars of the 20-40 have clearly already gone through the loss of the "I remember them when I was young" phase. What are the prices like on those these days. Is a Model A worth anything if it's not pristine? (bringing this thread back up since it's pretty significant)
That was my point some posts back. After awhile they move from hobby cars to museum pieces, and only the highest level examples are of any interest there. The cars of the 50s and 60s are moving rapidly that way.
I just re-read most of this thread, and something else popped into my mind, and that's the safety aspect. Most younger kids today have never been in anything that didn't have a gazillion air bags, and I would think some would be put off by the lack of safety in older cars. My TR4 would flex so much the doors would randomly pop open when you drove it. I'm not sure many today would put up that, or the rattles, no AC, etc. that's been mentioned previously.
^Prompted me to re-read this thread too.
Agree but don't think they would call it the safety aspect. The youngsters don't fully understand how we can still enjoy the cars of our youth when new cars are more reliable, faster and handle better. Why would anyone want that? 
And what this thing with distributers and what do you call that inside? Points? Superfluous with new tech. Just to do a comparison of what's in my garage. 1970 Opel GT: 1.9L puts out a whopping 102hp (by manual specs). 1999 Miata: 1.8L puts out what >120hp, just a guess. Which one is faster, handles better and stops better? Why would I want to keep messing with the Opel?
They just don't get it. But then again our predecessors said the same about us. Honestly, I think the "Brass era" cars a cool but don't want one.
As for some of us that do mess with old cars. I agree about availability of new or reproduction parts. I noticed that some (not here 
) are mighty proud of their rusty used parts too. Been through this with my Opel GT and going through it now again with my 1963 MG Midget. When adding up the cost of buying a used part, shipping, any repairs needed to used part and compare with cost of new reproduction and shipping with piece of mind of new vs. used. They come out pretty close to even. Unless you run into a deal, which happens but are rare. I do keep my eye open for them though.
aircooled wrote: The cars of the 20-40 have clearly already gone through the loss of the "I remember them when I was young" phase. What are the prices like on those these days. Is a Model A worth anything if it's not pristine? (bringing this thread back up since it's pretty significant)
Early Ford stuff (model T to B) is still valuable because of the hot rod crowd. In fact, as far as value is concerned, you are better to turn your Model A into an "old-skool" hot rod than to keep it stock. Same for pretty much anything from that era unless it's very rare, special and pristine. Mundane stuff like the Mopar Flathead I'm using in my speedster project is worthless, and people basically give it away, so it doesn't end up in the scrap.
Just look at Bugatti prices compared to Ferrari prices. They are high, but no where near as high as the crazy Ferrari prices.
While the conversation may have deviated from my scrapped parts rant, it has done a very good job of delving into the hive's mentality of the hobby and its future.
What I am hearing, and fully agree with, is that cars that are not really suited for DD use are going to be flooding the market soon with no buyers. I have a very nice MGB GT in that category; it really could not be much better, but it is not good enough to drive to Alaska with the wife unit along for company. Hence it is a piece of art, not a car.
A Datsun 240Z or a 1990 Miata on the other hand, if in good condition, can serve as transportation to anywhere anytime. Probably the kind of cars that I would look for if I were in the market. And I am pretty much done with restorations unless I am being paid to do the work. Saving my shop time for fabrication and hot-rods.
It is going to be interesting to see where the P1800 ES resto-mod I am building ends up on the usable "Drive it to Alaska with the wife" scale.
It if makes anyone feel better and helps this thread get back on topic, I am considering going to look at a complete MGB engine/trans locally this weekend. $300 complete with aftermarket intake & carb (Weber?), headers, starter, distributor and all accessories. They say it is out of a 1980 so I am hoping that the transmission has overdrive - I once heard that it became standard in those later years. The seller sounds like a non-MG guy so I think it would be easier just to look for myself than ask a bunch of questions.
The thing about our hobby that sets it apart from other restoration-oriented ones is that you have to have a genuine interest in making obsolete technology work the best that it can, or the money to pay other people to handle it for you. Furniture restorer's aren't using lead paint. House restorers aren't installing knob-and-tube wiring and Asbestos insulation because it's "period correct". But we are still fussing with SU carbs, drum brakes and points. If a technology was never current during a person's lifetime, valves that need adjusting every 20,000 miles might as well be a horse-and-buggy or a daguerreotype.
I mess with the old stuff because of fond memories, an appreciation of period aesthetics, an interest in history, a disinterest in all the superfluous stuff that modern cars have, and that it's a great way to unwind from my daily work reality. But I think that we have to reconcile ourselves to a slowly contracting scene.
Even cars from the 80s and 90s are subject to the OP's concerns.
I have TONS of RX7 parts. I have put them on craigslist and here for free. Not one person came to look to see what I have.
Granted, it is mostly interior parts, electrical devices, some suspension, etc... Probably enough to rebuild most of a car actually (no body panels).
I ended up scrapping most of it.
Only the rare parts are worth keeping at this point.
I actually blame the internet for this. You can go on ebay and buy any parts you want for CHEAP! You want a NEW carpet set for your rx7, boom done. It is the same cost as a used good carpet set once you include shipping.
Its just not worth buying or selling used parts anymore.
Racers always need spares. There are a number of Chump/LeMons guys running RX7s, old Saabs & VWs, etc. Vintage racers need old MG, Triumph & Porsche bits. Used interior bits may be hard to move, but there should still be an active market for mechanical parts... or are these guys buying rebuilt parts instead?
TeamEvil wrote: WOW ! We really DO live in 11 different Americas ! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2497613/Which-11-American-nations-live-The-map-shows-U-S-divided-separate-cultures-settlers-spread-West.html
Great Link! BTW: All the rides you're not used to seeing exist & sell in my part of Greater Appalachia. Should you want to buy a decent running John Deere GP or any of its' same aged competition, be prepared to spend what many pay for a small house. After all, it does have 25 horsepower!
Another issue is that cars today are sooo fast. My 370 has a sub 5 second to 60 time (barely), and even a Camry can hang on for a while. Your average sedan today would out run most supercars of days past.
I remember driving my Fiat 600 around 15 years ago, and even then it was difficult as no one wanted to be behind you, even if you were going faster. They would cut you off, slam on the brakes, etc. Given brake technology, that was somewhat puckering at the time. For short distances around the house it was fine, but long drives required real commitment.
In reply to NOHOME, I sold my 240Z a couple of years ago and still regret it. It could keep up with modern traffic and I wouldn't hesitate to drive a good one anywhere. I think that is reflected in their continuing rise in prices.
In reply to TeamEvil: Just put down the morning paper. It had a nice full color ad for a '67 Mustang Coupe, great paint, chrome, & correct rally wheels. (Of course the ad only shows one side of the car.)
It is a six, not an 8 but appears to be all original. The asking price? $8,500. That seems about right to start discussion to me. Assuming the car is really as nice as it looks in the ad. The same car with an 8 should have an asking price of maybe two to four thousand higher.
BTW: I was just looking at that map you linked in again. I find it funny they show all of California as part of the Left Coast. When I lived out there in the '60s both Northern & Southern California had huge numbers of people wanting to divide the state in half. The North and South parts of the state had almost nothing in common except the Pacific Ocean.
About the same pricing for '67 Mustang coupes here:
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4756131050.html
http://hartford.craigslist.org/cto/4725410674.html
http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4715508845.html
http://burlington.craigslist.org/cto/4706980948.html
"The North and South parts of the state had almost nothing in common except the Pacific Ocean."
Isn't that even more true today? To sacrifice the political clout of such a massive state for the benefit of it's population would be VERY brave, but it'll never happen.
I used to have a map of Massachusetts/New England in the studio, just West of the Berkshires there was simply a huge undefined stretch all the way to the Pacific labeled as "wilderness." The place where Maine and Canada would be was labeled as "too cold," and the area from the lower Massachusetts border to the Gulf, just had the lettering, "too hot."
We tend to be snobbish out here . . . .
kreb wrote: The thing about our hobby that sets it apart from other restoration-oriented ones is that you have to have a genuine interest in making obsolete technology work the best that it can, or the money to pay other people to handle it for you. Furniture restorer's aren't using lead paint. House restorers aren't installing knob-and-tube wiring and Asbestos insulation because it's "period correct". But we are still fussing with SU carbs, drum brakes and points.
Not all of us. 
If a technology was never current during a person's lifetime, valves that need adjusting every 20,000 miles might as well be a horse-and-buggy or a daguerreotype.
Both of these have modern day enthusiasts as well.
In reply to TeamEvil:
Man am I confused!!
You just told me $10K-$15K is a reasonable price or even possibly a high price for a nice '67 Mustang in your part of the world, which is the same as mine. Even allowing a K or two extra for it being a convertible, which probably would be cancelled out by the fact this car has a slushbox transmission. We're still talking about a $18K car at best.
If that be true Whiskey Tango Foxtrot would anyone even consider this Mustang of which several million cars were sold new at less than a $4K to 5K price be worth $20+K today? Especially this one which has the wrong VIN number and is resprayed in the wrong color!!
With all that being said, we're not even talking about the $28K price listed here. I don't think, if anyone finally comes to their senses, there is any disagreement, this car is hugely over priced!
Awesome thread, I actually supported my habit for about ten years by buying and selling Rabbits. I parted out about 40 over the last 15 years and bought and sold another fifteen-twenty decent useable cars. I knew them well so it was a fit and I felt there was a opening in the market with essentially no aftermarket. About four years ago I noticed that parts were not selling well at all; oddly enough about the same time as I lost interest in them myself.
There is a generation gap between the MG parts and early water cooled vw stuff but I'm thinking a similar thing has happened. Rabbits were great entry level drivers; now parents/students are buying ten year old corollas for the same money so the market is left to the "true believer". Many of the diehards have moved on to more expensive cars; Porsche, Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Japanese stuff too. MGs are the entry level sporty car, as time goes by the guys still intereted in a 15k mg are the "true believers". There are better ( for x, x, x and x reasons) cars for that price that do everything it does safer, cheaper, faster and more reliably. That's what I see happening.
Btw: anyone need some MKI parts?
In reply to TeamEvil: Hey I just got a good laugh! I was on Weather Underground & they have an article on Global Warming flooding much of Florida. Complete with pictures taken by astronauts to show where the problems might be..
Among the considerations, is to make sure planning is relevant, and some are thinking Florida must be split in two so both areas' issues will be considered important. And sure enough, your "11-American-nations-live" map already has that covered.
The power, prestige, and problems of being a continental power. Literally from sea to shinning sea. It never seemed to be remarkable to me until I graduated from college and really started to learn.
The sea levels are currently dropping in some areas just as quickly as they're rising in others. This forces me to thing that Global Warming isn't the whole picture, something wonderful, frightening, and MAJOR is just beginning to occur and managing another three miles per gallon or lessening emissions by another three parts per million isn't gonna make any mark at all. Something much bigger is getting under way and nothing that we do is going to have any impact at all. It's an Earth Thing, we're just crawling around on the crust of it thinking that we're somehow in control.
These days, I just can't get enough . . . every little bit of knowledge seems to have a ready made place where it fits perfectly into the whole.
Very interesting thread. I am going to throw out a crazy scenario and we can see if it gets any love.
Although it seems far away right now, at some point there is going to be inflation again. I'm not a canned meat and ammunition kind of guy, but I can see a return to the long term average of 3% with some short term spikes to 4% here and there. In an inflationary world, real things appreciate in currency denominated terms. That would mean higher prices for anything that fits the "not making any more of 'em" mold.
Now, imagine that a billion-plus Chinese, plus another billion-plus Indians finally make it into the middle class over the coming decades. Both of these cultures have ties to British culture. And every culture is tied to American culture. What would happen if 0.1% of these people decided that they wanted to a vintage British or American car? That would be 2.5 million vintage cars being shipped to the far east.
Crazy? Maybe. But it wasn't that long ago that all of the cool Italian hardware in the US was being shipped off to Japan. Remember that? Well get this--there are only about 125 million Japanese. There are TWENTY times as many people living in India and China right now.
To make this argument more compelling, global trade is moving faster than ever and the US has a huge trade imbalance with the far east. Does that mean that there is tons of shipping capacity from LA to Chinese ports going unused? I don't know, but my guess is yes.
So while we are all so sure that these cars are worthless on CL because kids today just sit and stare at their phones all day, maybe we are missing the real story.
Again, I have no idea if this is valid or will ever come to pass, but it doesn't seem completely crazy to think that this could happen.
In reply to AaronBalto:
I'm not going to say it couldn't happen, but from what I've read there are some limiting factors that make it a bit less likely that China will become a hot market for classic cars.
Those two points were the consensus of the discussion regarding why China is not a bigger market for classic Ferraris right now on another board I read. Either of the points could change in the future, although I think #1 is a little bit unlikely. Why would a young guy in Asia care about races contested primarily among Europeans and a few people and brands from the Americas 50 years ago? He isn't going to get super excited about old cars that he never saw on the road either. Some of the current exotic Automakers are working very hard to market their luxury goods in Asia, but I don't think many people in china are going to be to nostalgic about the whole Ford vs. Ferrari contest in the sixties, nor are they going to care that Austin Healey raced at Lemans too. I think the interest is going to shift to other things.
I may be crazy, but I feel strongly that classic car values will tank regardless of China becoming a market or not. Inflation may make things seem more expensive, but it is relative value that matters and I think the relative value of the typical classic car will be diminished. There are simply too many cars around and the world will move on to other things. The world of the future will see increased regulation of pollutants, increased costs for fossil fuels (and eventually a phase out most likely), driver-less cars, more mass transit. Sure, there are still horse buggy enthusiasts, but most old horse drawn conveyances have long rotted back into the earth over the many years of having next to no value. Values may hold up for a couple decades yet, but I think the end will be in sight soon.
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