1.4L Turbo Ecotec power potential, maybe other engine options?

Has anyone seen/heard of someone making decent power with these?

I've been thinking about starting an offroad project and using a wrecked Cruze as the base. 
Full tube frame (1500 lbs max with driver), with as much borrowed from the Cruze as possible. 
Using the Cruze wheelbase and width, I would borrow the engine, transmission, axles, and spindles/hubs. 
From there: pedals, shifter, electric power steering, rack & pinion.

Everything else would be custom fabricated.

I've seen some people make claims of 240 crank HP.
I was hoping for 300 or so, but 240 would be more than enough if I could get some extra RPM out of it.
Engine will be ran on Megasquirt (probably microsquirt) and E85 with an upgraded turbo as an option.

Does anyone have any insight on the cruze engine?
Maybe another engine option? Must be 4 cylinders, as light and small as possible with 200+ horsepower potential with bolt-ons.
I had considered a motorcycle engine/trans as an option, but a chain driven rear differential/axle setup is $$$$$.

I have $5000 MAXIMUM budget for the entire project, doing all design/fab/build/tune myself.

Prop drive motorcycle?

I can't find anything about the LE2 making bigger power numbers. It'd be cool, but you're pushing a lot of boost or spinning really high with that small displacement.

I'd seriously look into using the OE engine management.

Del Long, who is a very respected guy in Autocross circles has been running a 1.4 Ecotec recently in E Mod. I haven't been paying that much attention, but the impression I've gotten is that the engine has lots of power potential - but he's put a ton of work into it, so whether it's worth the time relative to other, more popular platforms, I cannot say.

AwesomeAuto said:

I've seen some people make claims of 240 crank HP.
I was hoping for 300 or so, but 240 would be more than enough if I could get some extra RPM out of it.
Engine will be ran on Megasquirt (probably microsquirt) and E85 with an upgraded turbo as an option.

Does anyone have any insight on the cruze engine?

The stock ECU is better, cheaper and easier than MS, and there's no way you're running that motor on microsquirt

MPfab is making 315, I believe, wheel HP with their daily driver/racer, and last I heard it had some decent mileage on it.

People are modding them and not blowing them up. They're good motors but there are a few things you should know.

The early ones had a problem with cracking pistons. I think it was solved around 13 or so, the same time they modified the M6 for better bearing lubrication, but do your research. The PCV system, while a great idea, has a 100% failure rate, and it can be a pricey fix. There is a workaround kit, but it's a poorly thought out and expensive solution. I have a far better solution that you can put together yourself for under $20

The stock cams are very mild, 180 duration at .050" on the intake and 165 on the exhaust.. You can rev it higher but you won't be making more power. There are, as far as I know, no better cam options and they're a bitch to grind. Most shops cannot do them (and they don't know), which is too bad because they desperately need more cam.

.

Suprf1y said:

AwesomeAuto said:

I've seen some people make claims of 240 crank HP.
I was hoping for 300 or so, but 240 would be more than enough if I could get some extra RPM out of it.
Engine will be ran on Megasquirt (probably microsquirt) and E85 with an upgraded turbo as an option.

Does anyone have any insight on the cruze engine?

 

The stock ECU is better, cheaper and easier than MS, and there's no way you're running that motor on microsquirt

MPfab is making 315, I believe, wheel HP with their daily driver/racer, and last I heard it had some decent mileage on it.

People are modding them and not blowing them up. They're good motors but there are a few things you should know.

The early ones had a problem with cracking pistons. I think it was solved around 13 or so, the same time they modified the M6 for better bearing lubrication, but do your research. The PCV system, while a great idea, has a 100% failure rate, and it can be a pricey fix. There is a workaround kit, but it's a poorly thought out and expensive solution. I have a far better solution that you can put together yourself for under $20

The stock cams are very mild, 180 duration at .050" on the intake and 165 on the exhaust.. You can rev it higher but you won't be making more power. There are, as far as I know, no better cam options and they're a bitch to grind. Most shops cannot do them (and they don't know), which is too bad because they desperately need more cam.

Some good info there. I'll look for 13+ with an M6. 

I can have the cams reground. Any company that regrinds cams should be able to change the duration and lift of a lobe by regrinding a factory cam.
I'm not looking for anything spectacular on cam size, just one that carries the RPM out to where it should easily be able to handle with such a small displacement. 

I'm highly doubting that the factory PCM is going to be better than any megasquirt setup. I've been tuning for over a decade and the factory PCM just isn't going to offer any advantages. I'm not going to be running an auto trans, emissions, gasoline, factory gauges, etc. 

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I have not seen any aftermarket computer that was remotely as good as what the OEMs have been putting out.

As a bonus, you won't have to do any of the mapping.

How hard/involved is it to get the stock ECU to play in a swap?  I'm not talking integration with the other cars electronics, just getting the 1.4L to run reliably in a different chassis.  I seem to remember The Pinkpanther having some struggles to get the 2.0L to run good.  

I like this motor and would consider it for the MG but running the thing seems challenging.

Knurled. said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I have not seen any aftermarket computer that was remotely as good as what the OEMs have been putting out.

 

As a bonus, you won't have to do any of the mapping

The aftermarket doesn't do as good for street-only cars. This isn't a street car. I'm not concerned about idle quality, fuel economy, emissions, part throttle cruising, etc.

I've seen the PCM with HPTuners. I've been using HPTuners for 5 years now and have done ~40 cars now. 
It is not going to be better than megasquirt in any way for this project.

Things that the stock PCM won't do when compared to megasquirt:

1. HPTuners will have to be connected at all times with a laptop to datalog. 
2. The stock PCM doesn't allow for native wideband support.
3. The stock PCM doesn't do EGO correction, only fuel trims via wideband.
4. The stock PCM doesn't have programmable outputs, safety shut downs, auto-tune fueling. 
5. The stock PCM can't do multiple boost control strategies.
6. The stock PCM can't datalog backpressure, coolant pressure, pre-IC pressure, 8-channel EGT, shock travel, 3-axis G-force, turbo RPM, or a dozen other things I may need.

I could go on for days. I'm not sure how anyone thinks the stock PCM would be better for a 1.4 in a mini-buggy than an aftermarket PCM. 
Most people that recommend stock PCMs to me aren't tuners. 

And doing the mapping? Not a problem. I tune everything I own.

 

In reply to nocones:

The issue with Pinkpanther was more about finding people who knew how to calibrate HP Tuners so that it would ignore the missing parts.  Once he got that taken care of, it became more of a development issue.  So look into HP Tuners to see if they have a base calibration for whatever configuration you start with.  If you do, it's a matter of turning the right parts off.  I assume that you would be putting this into a DM car, right?  I would think starting with a production calibration since you have a restrictor would be a good start- and expand where you can.

It's the same powertrain that is powering the DM X1/9 that haunts my nights.  ;)

alfadriver said:

 I assume that you would be putting this into a DM car, right? 

Tube chassis mini-buggy.

Think Pirahna buggy

AwesomeAuto said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I have not seen any aftermarket computer that was remotely as good as what the OEMs have been putting out.

 

As a bonus, you won't have to do any of the mapping

The aftermarket doesn't do as good for street-only cars. This isn't a street car. I'm not concerned about idle quality, fuel economy, emissions, part throttle cruising, etc.

I've seen the PCM with HPTuners. I've been using HPTuners for 5 years now and have done ~40 cars now. 
It is not going to be better than megasquirt in any way for this project.

Things that the stock PCM won't do when compared to megasquirt:

1. HPTuners will have to be connected at all times with a laptop to datalog. 
2. The stock PCM doesn't allow for native wideband support.
3. The stock PCM doesn't do EGO correction, only fuel trims via wideband.
4. The stock PCM doesn't have programmable outputs, safety shut downs, auto-tune fueling. 
5. The stock PCM can't do multiple boost control strategies.
6. The stock PCM can't datalog backpressure, coolant pressure, pre-IC pressure, 8-channel EGT, shock travel, 3-axis G-force, turbo RPM, or a dozen other things I may need.

I could go on for days. I'm not sure how anyone thinks the stock PCM would be better for a 1.4 in a mini-buggy than an aftermarket PCM. 
Most people that recommend stock PCMs to me aren't tuners. 

And doing the mapping? Not a problem. I tune everything I own.

 

 

IMHO, you are down playing the base map a lot too much.  Not sure what you mean by "does not allow for native WB support"- since every car after 2008 has a WB sensor baked into it.  The big deal is to know how to manipulate the desired a/f.  And on that note, why would you need EGO correction?  What do you expect to gain?  

No, it does not have programmable output, and it certainly would not do auto-tune- but it's already calibrated, so that's not really needed anyway.

Other than re-flashing the MS, I have no idea how it can support multiple boost control strategies all on it's own.

And does MS have a totally separate A-D board to log other stuff???  Never knew that.

I don't think using the stock PCM is nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if others don't have the parts to do the calibration.  And unless you have access to cylinder pressure, you are not actually calibrating to what OEM's do.  That's how spark is calibrated on a dyno.

Feel free to call me a non-tuner, but..... 

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

Sorry- my comment was to Nocones.  I'm familiar with his MG, not your project.  

alfadriver said:

AwesomeAuto said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I have not seen any aftermarket computer that was remotely as good as what the OEMs have been putting out.

 

As a bonus, you won't have to do any of the mapping

The aftermarket doesn't do as good for street-only cars. This isn't a street car. I'm not concerned about idle quality, fuel economy, emissions, part throttle cruising, etc.

I've seen the PCM with HPTuners. I've been using HPTuners for 5 years now and have done ~40 cars now. 
It is not going to be better than megasquirt in any way for this project.

Things that the stock PCM won't do when compared to megasquirt:

1. HPTuners will have to be connected at all times with a laptop to datalog. 
2. The stock PCM doesn't allow for native wideband support.
3. The stock PCM doesn't do EGO correction, only fuel trims via wideband.
4. The stock PCM doesn't have programmable outputs, safety shut downs, auto-tune fueling. 
5. The stock PCM can't do multiple boost control strategies.
6. The stock PCM can't datalog backpressure, coolant pressure, pre-IC pressure, 8-channel EGT, shock travel, 3-axis G-force, turbo RPM, or a dozen other things I may need.

I could go on for days. I'm not sure how anyone thinks the stock PCM would be better for a 1.4 in a mini-buggy than an aftermarket PCM. 
Most people that recommend stock PCMs to me aren't tuners. 

And doing the mapping? Not a problem. I tune everything I own.

 

 

IMHO, you are down playing the base map a lot too much.  Not sure what you mean by "does not allow for native WB support"- since every car after 2008 has a WB sensor baked into it.  The big deal is to know how to manipulate the desired a/f.  And on that note, why would you need EGO correction?  What do you expect to gain?  

No, it does not have programmable output, and it certainly would not do auto-tune- but it's already calibrated, so that's not really needed anyway.

Other than re-flashing the MS, I have no idea how it can support multiple boost control strategies all on it's own.

And does MS have a totally separate A-D board to log other stuff???  Never knew that.

I don't think using the stock PCM is nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if others don't have the parts to do the calibration.  And unless you have access to cylinder pressure, you are not actually calibrating to what OEM's do.  That's how spark is calibrated on a dyno.

Feel free to call me a non-tuner, but..... 

Stock cars after 08 don't have a lambda based wideband sensor.
I'm not interested in the base map in any way. I don't need a crutch to lean on for the tune. I don't need a basis, a starting point, etc.

EGO correction will be needed for off-road fueling.
Going hard sideways or airborne may cause fuel pressure to drop, EGO correction will compensate by adjusting the injector pulse width to hit target AFR. 
It will also work along side auto-tune to dial in the main VE table without concern over boost detonation on an untuned engine by using a PID to match fuel to the target AFR table and then locking in the VE accordingly.

I'm wanting to boost power at least 50-75%.
-The air intake will probably be a large aluminum tube and filter. Aftermarket blow off valve.
-The exhaust after the turbo will probably be nothing more than a 3" open downpipe, MAYBE a bullet muffler.
-Non-stock intercooler is likely. 
-No O2 sensors other than an aftermarket wideband.
-No MAF sensor.
-Likely no transmission control or communication in any way.

Megasquirt boost control in closed loop and launch mode can do boost by speed/time/gear. Outside of launch, it can still do boost by speed/rpm/gear in harmonious fashion.
I can even setup custom PWM tables to do boost control on whatever parameter I want, from G-force to lower boost in turns to electric power steering feedback to adjust boost on steering angle.

Megasquirt doesn't need a separate board for extra inputs/outputs depending on which version (I'm referencing MS3Pro in this post). 
With a standard CAN language, there are CAN based add-on ADC board out there that allow for infinite input/outputs and they're reasonably affordable.

The stock PCM is almost completely irrelevant here other than the fact it can be used to run the engine.
 

Now if we can get past the "STOCK PCM ARE BETTER" conversation, does anyone actually have any input on stock long block strength at 240-300 horsepower?

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

Uh, every car since 2006 that I've worked on has had WB sensors on them.  So I'm not sure what source of vehicles you have.  And the feedback is in lambda, just as the target exhaust is, and the trimming.  

It's interesting that you think exhaust gas O2 is capable of compensating for fuel pressure drops, quickly.  While the sensors are capable of compensating for them, they are relatively slow- I've always used a delay from a transient event to when the sensor even sees it, and then it has to react to it.  I really don't see EGO correction doing a good job with the kind of transient you imply.  On the other hand, modern cars also have fuel pressure- and that would compensate for the injected fuel.  Last I checked, MS does not have fuel pressure as an input.  But if you think that's an advantage, that's ok...

Oh, and instead of using some kind of open loop fuel correction for knock, most modern cars have knock control....  Which is better than an open loop reaction.

Seeing how much power Loosecannon is getting from his car, which is using an OEM module, with heavily modified exhaust- and it's very capable of being tuned around that- everything you posted seems to be easily dealt with.  And, as I pointed out before, the car comes with a WB sensor- he's running closed loop all the time with the WB sensor, so it's right on it's target (other than some tweaks).  He also is running speed-density- since that's what it came with (just like most boosted cars on the market these days).

Interesting that MS does support other data logging.  Didn't know that.  Pretty neat.

And I still think you are downplaying the stock MAP way too much- again, unless you are getting in cylinder pressure, and have the hours and hours to tune the spark, there's no way your spark calibration is anywhere near as good as the OEM one.  Air and fuel is easy- getting spark to it's best is really hard.

AwesomeAuto said:

Now if we can get past the "STOCK PCM ARE BETTER" conversation, does anyone actually have any input on stock long block strength at 240-300 horsepower?

good luck with you project

alfadriver said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

Uh, every car since 2006 that I've worked on has had WB sensors on them.  So I'm not sure what source of vehicles you have.  And the feedback is in lambda, just as the target exhaust is, and the trimming.  

It's interesting that you think exhaust gas O2 is capable of compensating for fuel pressure drops, quickly.  While the sensors are capable of compensating for them, they are relatively slow- I've always used a delay from a transient event to when the sensor even sees it, and then it has to react to it.  I really don't see EGO correction doing a good job with the kind of transient you imply.  On the other hand, modern cars also have fuel pressure- and that would compensate for the injected fuel.  Last I checked, MS does not have fuel pressure as an input.  But if you think that's an advantage, that's ok...

Oh, and instead of using some kind of open loop fuel correction for knock, most modern cars have knock control....  Which is better than an open loop reaction.

Seeing how much power Loosecannon is getting from his car, which is using an OEM module, with heavily modified exhaust- and it's very capable of being tuned around that- everything you posted seems to be easily dealt with.  And, as I pointed out before, the car comes with a WB sensor- he's running closed loop all the time with the WB sensor, so it's right on it's target (other than some tweaks).  He also is running speed-density- since that's what it came with (just like most boosted cars on the market these days).

Interesting that MS does support other data logging.  Didn't know that.  Pretty neat.

And I still think you are downplaying the stock MAP way too much- again, unless you are getting in cylinder pressure, and have the hours and hours to tune the spark, there's no way your spark calibration is anywhere near as good as the OEM one.  Air and fuel is easy- getting spark to it's best is really hard.

You can input fuel pressure, fuel temperature, alcohol content, and water content into Megasquirt. You can run returnless fuel with a LARGE fuel pump with megasquirt and control the pump via PWM based PID to maintain target fuel pressure. EGO correction can be setup to use fuel pressure as a variable in megasquirt.

It will literally accept any 0-5v input and adjust almost any parameter accordingly.
It will accept any digital on/off output, most PWM input/outputs depending on frequency. Datalogging ANY input or custom math parameter.
I can input a 0-5v lumen sensor and have it turn on my running lights and/or headlights based on detected lighting. 

In my corvette, I could input a shock travel sensor on the rear shocks, setup a PID maintain a target travel/speed ratio for downforce, and have it PWM my active aero actuators. 
It will datalog downforce based on input spring rate and shock travel distance, and datalog the angle of my rear wing based on min/max angle and PWM %.
It also does onboard SD card logging. I don't have to use the laptop to log. Ever.

You're GREATLY underplaying the capabilities of Megasquirt. 

The stock PCM in my Nova can control the engine/trans at 1000 horsepower. It isn't nearly as capable as the MS3pro in my corvette. Not close. Doesn't even hold a candle to it.
Spark calibration can be done on engine/chassis dynos. Both of which I have ample access to. Who uses the stock spark maps when doubling horsepower anyway??

AwesomeAuto said

Things that the stock PCM won't do when compared to megasquirt:

1. HPTuners will have to be connected at all times with a laptop to datalog. 
2. The stock PCM doesn't allow for native wideband support.
3. The stock PCM doesn't do EGO correction, only fuel trims via wideband.
4. The stock PCM doesn't have programmable outputs, safety shut downs, auto-tune fueling. 
5. The stock PCM can't do multiple boost control strategies.
6. The stock PCM can't datalog backpressure, coolant pressure, pre-IC pressure, 8-channel EGT, shock travel, 3-axis G-force, turbo RPM, or a dozen other things I may need.
 

I see now... yes, from a DAQ-geeking standpoint, it is much nicer when all of that is built in.

And he initially said he was going to run it on Microsquirt.

When you take your cams in to be ground, stop at the wreckers and pick up some spare valve springs and rockers. You're going to need them.

Good luck with you're project. Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

I don't have a strong opinion on the PCM topic either way but I will say that your posts defending MS are mostly just convincing everyone that you don't need any help. After which... crickets. 

Suprf1y said:

And he initially said he was going to run it on Microsquirt.

When you take your cams in to be ground, stop at the wreckers and pick up some spare valve springs and rockers. You're going to need them.

Good luck with you're project. Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

I have both. Microsquirt will do the job with a few trade-offs. Its limitations lie in the old hardware that doesn't have the processing power to handle some of the more complicated features and it doesn't have an IAC controller. I've used micro on 600-700 horsepower setups with no issues. 

Valve springs are an easy fix. There are so many valve springs available that finding one to fit the Ecotec won't be hard. Worst case, I either have to shim the springs to get the correct install height, or cut the spring pockets wider for a larger spring. Having a friend with an automotive machine shop makes that a non-issue.

Rockers may not be so easy. One of the many reasons I made this post in the first place. 

 

Vigo said:

I don't have a strong opinion on the PCM topic either way but I will say that your posts defending MS are mostly just convincing everyone that you don't need any help. After which... crickets. 

I came here looking for info on the 1.4 engine itself and was instantly cornered into trying to use the stock PCM.

Tuning hasn't been a concern since before this project was thought up. Its not something I need help with or advice on. 
Stock GM PCM tuning is in no way foreign or a mystery to me. I won't be swayed towards the stock PCM.

It wasn't intended to be a variable in this conversation in any way until other people tried to make it one.
I came here looking for info on the 1.4 Ecotec's shortcomings when trying to make power, whether it be block strength, valvetrain shortfalls, oiling issues, possible piston problems, crank strength, limitations on upgrades, or years that revisions were made to change/improve such problems. Instead all I've gotten so far is people recommending the stock PCM.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

The reason I brought up the stock PCM is that there is a whole lot of power already mapped in the stock PCM, you just need to raise certain limits.  But AFAIK nobody has tried much beyond the 200whp level.  Anyway, if you are familiar with HPT then you have access to the same knowledge resources I used to have.

Knurled. said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

The reason I brought up the stock PCM is that there is a whole lot of power already mapped in the stock PCM, you just need to raise certain limits.  But AFAIK nobody has tried much beyond the 200whp level.  Anyway, if you are familiar with HPT then you have access to the same knowledge resources I used to have.

Yeah I have HPTuners. I've been tuning LS engines for years. I've also done a lot of GM 4.3 tuning and some of the larger 4-cylinder Ecotec engines. Its not something that has a place in this project. I could literally have the engine fired and doing wide open throttle test pulls on microsquirt in 15 minutes once its ready to fire up. The benefits of megasquirt or Holley EFI far outweigh the stock PCM in almost every aspect, especially for a project that will never be just driven or cruised. 

As a Megasquirt fan who also appreciates the drivability a stock ECU provides, I must say this thread has been quite entertaining. 

OP- You might want to give DDMWorks in South Carolina a call. They have a good bit of experience with hotted up 1.4 Ecotec engines. They blew one up running about 190whp if I recall correctly, but that was because someone put in regular gas.