$15K Weekend/Track Car

Currently trying to pick a 2nd car for around $15K, to run purely for fun and to tinker with at weekends. Would be predominantly a "canyon-carver" here in SoCal, but would like to try and bag maybe 4 trackdays per year too. My current shortlist is: 911SC Coupe, 986 Boxster S, S2000, E46 M3. What are your thoughts on these cars, for those that have owned them? Are there any decent candidates that I'm missing? The Miata is the obvious omission: that's purely because, after running an MR2 Spyder for a couple of years, I'm after with something with more poke without having to go down the F/I route. great car, but underpowered and I want something that will last longer without that thirst for power.

My ideal choice would be the 911 as I love the history of the car and the vintage/retro feel, but I know $15K is on the low side for these, and admit to being a little scared of maintenance costs. I do love the sound of that flat six too. The S2000 would appear to be the sensible choice in terms of reliability and a great aftermarket, although I'd prefer something with a bit more torque for street duty (hence the Boxster S).

Thanks.

How much wrenching are you willing/able to do?

Could always wait a year and buy a used N/A BRZ/FR-S once they lose all value when the turbo models are released.....

I'd add the 350Z and RX-8 (the latter depending somewhat on your "wrenching") to that list.

Also, be careful with the S2000 and Boxster. Some tracks and track-day organizations have rules about convertibles that may require you to source an OEM hardtop (I don't even think there is one for the Boxster) or install a roll bar.

You are considering an S2000 and your decision isn't made?

The S2000 is an amazing machine. For $15k it'll be better and run longer, flogged every minute of it mind you, than anything else you're considering.

I've personally seen a 2002 Honda S2000 that TODAY has 7000ish miles on it and every last foot of it is autocross and idling in grid. We have another 2005, with maybe 15,000 miles (is driven to events) and it has been hammered like an anvil by the most hamfisted, ignorant, never-driven-a-manual-in-their-life, thinks-they're-Senna parking lot heros that Honda Motor Company has ever employed.

The 05 NEVER breaks, and the 02, when it does have an issue, it is always, ALWAYS related to some aftermarket stuff we bolted onto the poor sainted creature.

S2000s are some terrifying science fiction experiment crossbreeds of an Chuck Yeager X-1 and an Abrahms tank. Honey Badgers can afford to not care because the S2000 exists.

I'm a pretty good wrencher and can pretty much do anything that doesn't require specialist tools. In my previous life I built a motorcycle-engined Caterham 7.

Nice idea on the used FR-S/BRZ. When are the turbo models anticipated? Did they resolve that annoying torque dip "feature" on the base model?

I can appreciate the great value of the 350Z but it's too lardy for my tastes (both in dimensions and weight). RX8 I have not considered due to fears (unfounded or not) over the unusual engine.

I've checked and both the Boxster and S2000 qualify for track days at the popular tracks in SoCal with the OEM "roll hoops". I would probably grab a hard-top for an S2000 anyway as I simply prefer the styling of a coupe compared to a rag-top.

You're dangerously close to Z06 territory. That's my vote.

I feel like I need a button on my keyboard that types out "Yes, you should definitely buy an S2000".

Ferrino wrote: Nice idea on the used FR-S/BRZ. When are the turbo models anticipated? Did they resolve that annoying torque dip "feature" on the base model?

No idea, honestly, on torque dip....

Last I heard, the turbo models should be out for the 2014 MY,.....but again I could be wrong. I much prefer the WRX for canyon carving, mountain roads, and fast work. But I'm weird like that....plus I have two other lightweight RWD cars if I really want to hoon.

That brings up another thought....

For $15k you can probably find a decent e30m3.....or for $15k you can build an absolutely excellent regular e30 with top-end suspension, power adders/engine swap, and tons of other upgrades to make it fast, and still have some change leftover probably. And it will be more fun than an e46m3 (IMO). Also I've wrenched on a lot of cars...german, italian, british, american, and japanese. And none comes anywhere close to an e30 in "fun to work on and tinker with" category. So sensibly built ,parts are cheap, and even with an M42 it feels faster than my WRX that has over double the power (though it isn't actually nearly as fast)

One addition: BMW 2002 with an M42 swap and some suspension upgrades makes for lots o fun in the twisties.

LainfordExpress wrote: You are considering an S2000 and your decision isn't made?

Ha. At the moment the main contenders are the S2000 and the 911SC. I know, seems like an odd pairing, and while I'm sure the S2000 would take the 911SC to the cleaners on track, I am realistically going to be spending most time on the street, where I think the better low-down grunt of the 911 (peak torque around 4-5KRPM vs. 6-8KRPM for S2000) and glorious soundtrack will give it the edge. It's also 2-300 lbs lighter, I believe? I'm sure the S2000 can sound heavenly when wringing its neck and perhaps with an aftermarket exhaust, though! The reliability of the S2000 is a massive attraction for me, especially as the tracks around here are situated in some really hot parts of the country. I also like to tinker and it seems it's cheaper to buy aftermarket parts for the S2000 and perform general maintenance. Another thing is A/C: I'm a big fan of functional air-con and the S2000 must have the upper-hand on this too.

How about engine rebuilds or replacement engines on the S2000? How much are we talking, roughly, if the E36 M3 hits the fan? The ballpark for merely a top-end on the SC air-cooled engine is around $6K, which does worry me. I think a transmission rebuild runs around $2K too. Obviously the concern over this can be reduced through a thorough pre-purchase inspection, though.

Has anyone driven both the S2000 and a 911SC 3.0/Carrera 3.2?

I've not driven a Porsche. But I drove the crap out of those S2000s last year AND WAS AMAZED.

I think cars like the S2000, 06-11 Civic Si, RX-8, have a bad wrap mostly from people who haven't driven them but read spec sheets obsessively. Drive the car and decide if it has enough torque for yourself. If you're like me and you aren't jumping car to car all the time, it probably feels like a lot, because your previous car was a Grand Marquis, which had torque but still felt like a particularly slow diesel battleship.

Does $15k include your budget to make the car trackworthy? Or how much extra is that budget?

ShadowSix wrote: Also, be careful with the S2000 and Boxster. Some tracks and track-day organizations have rules about convertibles that may require you to source an OEM hardtop (I don't even think there is one for the Boxster) or install a roll bar.

There is an OEM hardtop for the Boxster, at least for 986s. Used ones appear to be cheaper than the S2k hardtop, too.

For S2000, I'd budget for general maintenance - new engine oil, cooling system change, brake fluid (high temp), and new high quality transmission fluid. Then I'd buy some good pads (new rotors too, in needed, OE replacement), and wheels and tires, and a helmet, and call it done.

You can throw parts at it, but there really is no need, especially if you're just getting started. And the S2000 is pretty finely tuned; I've heard of people having trouble throwing parts at the car without tuning... you can only make it run so lean, high compression typically doesn't need to be raised.

After that, shocks and springs, and a big adjustable front swaybar, and I'd call it a day. If you absolutely must, TODA makes a beautiful exhaust that'll make it sound nice and will be easier to hear on the track. Lastly, if you start to really notice brake fade, Accord calipers are enormous and bolt on.

How good are you at wrenching? Just THINKING about paying the going rate to get my Porsche repaired makes me curl up into a little ball. It's not nearly as bad if you work on it yourself and buy parts from online vendors.

LainfordExpress wrote: I've not driven a Porsche. But I drove the crap out of those S2000s last year AND WAS AMAZED. I think cars like the S2000, 06-11 Civic Si, RX-8, have a bad wrap mostly from people who haven't driven them but read spec sheets obsessively. Drive the car and decide if it has enough torque for yourself. If you're like me and you aren't jumping car to car all the time, it probably feels like a lot, because your previous car was a Grand Marquis, which had torque but still felt like a particularly slow diesel battleship.

There's a street vs. track thing going on here too. S2000's, even the 2.2L ones, don't feel all that fast on the street, but you don't feel that lack of low-end torque on the track because you don't let the revs drop that low.

Id buy an alfa gtv6, they are pretty durable and plenty of performance parts are available, and if you blow the engine you can find a long block for likely well under $500 (a used running one), and transmissions are cheap too.

ShadowSix wrote: There's a street vs. track thing going on here too. S2000's, even the 2.2L ones, don't feel all that fast on the street, but you don't feel that lack of low-end torque on the track because you don't let the revs drop that low.

Quoted for truth. The S2000 exists to be caned like a Singaporean graffiti vandal.

z31maniac wrote: Does $15k include your budget to make the car trackworthy? Or how much extra is that budget?

I was hoping to get a complete car capable of an introduction to trackdays for $15K. I was thinking that was reasonable, no? I guess it depends on your definition of trackworthy, but I was under the impression that the S2000 was very much a car you can track in stock form and modify as you go.

S2000, this isn't even a contest.

If trackdays or performance were a little less important and "class" was a little more, then maybe it would be a hard choice.

Otherwise, the S2000 represents a rare car that we may likely never see again. I will own one one day.

Ferrino wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Does $15k include your budget to make the car trackworthy? Or how much extra is that budget?

I was hoping to get a complete car capable of an introduction to trackdays for $15K. I was thinking that was reasonable, no? I guess it depends on your definition of trackworthy, but I was under the impression that the S2000 was very much a car you can track in stock form and modify as you go.

Very capable, not doubt.

But fresh brakes, tires/wheels, and proper safety equipment.......which for me means a 4pt roll bar, fixed back seats, 5/6 pt harnesses........will all add another $3-4k to the car.

You can just put BFG Rivals or NT-01/R888 on the stock wheels since it will be a 2nd/play car.

Then you have to take into account future running costs, especially brakes/tires for HPDE work and entry fees. My local track is CHEAP, but if I go Sat/Sun, between gas/food/fees/etc, I know it's a ~$500 weekend not including the wear on the tires/brakes/oil changes/etc.

So you have to decide what's more important, the car you want, or the ability to attend as much track time as possible. And also what you are willing to accept in terms of risk, for the very real possibility you blow the car up or put it in a tire barrier.

For me it was track time, so I picked up a $2500 1.6 Miata.

As someone who runs mostly PCA track days I'll chime in, I also instruct so I've driven the cars on your list:

Boxster, the early cars had issues with intermediate shaft bearings. While not huge numbers of cars suffered from this, if it does go it trashes the engine (bearing bits in oil) and a used motor is 5-7K. The bearing kit is around $600 but the labor can be upwards of 3K.

911SC, 15K may get you a car but not likely it's going to come with complete service records, I'd say you would need to up the budget to around 20-25K. Also the A/C on earlier 911's isn't the best.

As for the S2000 and the lack of torque, maybe my time road racing piston port 2-strokes and inhaling bean oil fumes has altered my brain, S2000's have plenty of torque so it's not an issue. Yes you need to rev them a little more.............but that's part of the appeal, remember Soichiro is the guy who made 22,000 RPM 4 stokes successful nearly 50 years ago............it's part of Honda's heritage just as American V8's are know for grunt. Now I've only driven S2000's on track but found them to be a lot of fun, nicely balanced and decent power.

As for the M3, great cars but the insurance can be a real stinger and finding one that some zooty boy hasn't hammered on can be tough. Also note as they are somewhat heavy your tire bill is going to go up.

As for canyon carving, any car will do, I can drive along fast enough in my 140HP Protege to both get arrested and be glued to the back bumper of high end sports cars if I wanted to. A perfect example of this is take a look the lap times for front running Spec Miatas at Willow Springs...............they're equal to or better than many high end sports cars.

My vote is for the S2000, if not that get a Turbo/supercharged Miata or even a V8 Miata (if 15k will do it). I will also tell you that having a very fast single seater (SCCA D-Sports Racer) that faster cars do not equal more fun...... bigger rush but not more fun. The only thing faster than the car is the rate money flies out of your wallet. At most track days there are guys like myself in peddle cars; Miatas, Civics and old Datsuns going much faster than people with horsepower cars. It's that old adage of going fast in a slow car verusu being that guy with fast car and slow lap times.

Now do keep in mind I have my motorcycles so cars short of 600HP don't seem that fast, this also makes me lean toward an S2000 as the motors pull decent revs.

  Tom

For some odd-ball choices, consider also the Z3 M Roadster, Mitsu Evo VIII RS, and (my personal favorite) Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 Cosworth.

You can buy a very clean 190E Cosworth for $7k. It's everything you love about the E30 M3 but with 4-door practicality and a much lower buy-in cost.

Thunder Roadster. You can get a Hayabusa powered one for about that price.