I have a V6, my dad has a 2.0. The V6 has to run in F Street, with the V8 Mustangs and Camaros, and BMW M cars. The 2.0t gets to run in the same class as the Frisbee twins, and is a quicker car all around, plus a better street car than the twins. I’m really close to buying my dad’s car (he just turned 75 and the car just sits in his garage now) so I can autocross it. There are too many good F Street cars in my area to run my V6.
Dave M said:In reply to STM317 :
Y'all are talking about a 2.0 Camaro but OP is getting the V6 for the same money as the Toyobaru!
We were responding to the post that a 4 cyl pony car is "meh".
racerfink said:I have a V6, my dad has a 2.0. The V6 has to run in F Street, with the V8 Mustangs and Camaros, and BMW M cars. The 2.0t gets to run in the same class as the Frisbee twins, and is a quicker car all around, plus a better street car than the twins. I’m really close to buying my dad’s car (he just turned 75 and the car just sits in his garage now) so I can autocross it. There are too many good F Street cars in my area to run my V6.
In addition to the Street classes, wouldn't any Camaro be eligible for CAM-C too? In fact, a 2.0 Camaro just won nationals in CAM-C.
I believe that same car, same driver, same course, same brand/model of tire, a 2.0t 1LE camaro would absolutely destroy a FRS/BRZ. Whether it's a tight course or open road course doesn't matter. (Obviously this is opinion until someone does a head to head we can't know for sure.
The v6 is outclassed in autocross if it's stuck with the v8 cars, that stinks.
Finally some people who've run one!
I love the BRZ/FRS, but the Camaro seems to be the better of the 2. It would also seem to be the better trip car.
Now I know what to begin "selling" to the wife and then driving both engines to see which works for us.
STM317 said:racerfink said:I have a V6, my dad has a 2.0. The V6 has to run in F Street, with the V8 Mustangs and Camaros, and BMW M cars. The 2.0t gets to run in the same class as the Frisbee twins, and is a quicker car all around, plus a better street car than the twins. I’m really close to buying my dad’s car (he just turned 75 and the car just sits in his garage now) so I can autocross it. There are too many good F Street cars in my area to run my V6.
In addition to the Street classes, wouldn't any Camaro be eligible for CAM-C too? In fact, a 2.0 Camaro just won nationals in CAM-C.
Of note.... they've nuked 3 turbos on that car so far with the 10 second anti-lag.
racerfink said:For some reason, I thought it was an RS, but it was just a LT.
Correct, just above base model. I spoke with Mark's co driver Curt about the car at Nats. I didn't realize how cheap they go for... just wild.
dculberson said:I believe that same car, same driver, same course, same brand/model of tire, a 2.0t 1LE camaro would absolutely destroy a FRS/BRZ. Whether it's a tight course or open road course doesn't matter. (Obviously this is opinion until someone does a head to head we can't know for sure.
The v6 is outclassed in autocross if it's stuck with the v8 cars, that stinks.
The Base Camaro 2.0T beat the twins in D Street..... FWIW.....
AnthonyGS said:STM317 said:Dave M said:In reply to STM317 :
Y'all are talking about a 2.0 Camaro but OP is getting the V6 for the same money as the Toyobaru!
We were responding to the post that a 4 cyl pony car is "meh".
And it always will be meh compared to its V8 brother. Next you’ll be telling me the evoboost mustang is better than a gt350 or a base corvette is better than a Z06. If Lightning Lap times are one of your rulers than the V8 pony cars are a lot better.
The new generation turbo pony cars are awesome, but they aren’t so awesome Ford and GM scraped their V8 engine programs. Is a caddy ATS better than a CTS-V? Is the VW golf better than the GTI or Golf R. Is the focus better than the ST ir RS? That’s my point. If you’re going in, then dive all the way unless economics or fuel mileage are important. When it comes to speed go all in because pony cars are heavy.
PREACH
AnthonyGS said:And it always will be meh compared to its V8 brother. Next you’ll be telling me the evoboost mustang is better than a gt350 or a base corvette is better than a Z06. If Lightning Lap times are one of your rulers than the V8 pony cars are a lot better.
The new generation turbo pony cars are awesome, but they aren’t so awesome Ford and GM scraped their V8 engine programs. Is a caddy ATS better than a CTS-V? Is the VW golf better than the GTI or Golf R. Is the focus better than the ST ir RS? That’s my point. If you’re going in, then dive all the way unless economics or fuel mileage are important. When it comes to speed go all in because pony cars are heavy.
I get that. I'm not saying they're better. I'm saying the V8s are way out of this league in power and price. When comparing $25-30k, RWD, 2+2 sports coupes with 200-300hp saying "should've got the V8!" Isn't really pertinent because the comparable V8 is quite a bit more expensive and has like 35% more power.
This is GRM, and like most buyers of any product we tend to shop by price range. Economics are always a factor. Budgets are a thing for most people. If you could get the V8 cars with similar equipment as the V6 or turbo4 cars, for similar prices then that's what I'd be suggesting. But obviously that's not really an option. If it were, the OP probably wouldn't be shopping them against 200hp Momentum cars like the twins.
It's absurd to say that anything other than the highest performing version of a product is "meh". If that were true, your V8 Mustang would be "meh" too compared to the gt350. If BMW, or Porsche sold a RWD 2+2 with roughly 300/hp and 300tq that got 30mpg and sold for under $30k people would flip their E36 M3. The only reason people think these pony cars are "meh" is that they've always had burly V8s so that's what people associate with them. Next time you walk past a Cayman, are you going to say "psh, should've gotten the GT4 bro!"? Or when you see a ZO6, will you say to the owner "That was a nice car, until the ZR-1 came out. Sorry bout your second tier car man." Of course not, because a decent car is a decent car. It stands on its own merits, and competes against similar vehicles with similar specs and prices.
Plus, that 2.0t LT1 Camaro that won the 2017 Solo Nats in D Street? It beat EVERY single car in F Street that week, and beat almost every car in the CAM classes as well.
When I did the Cadillac V-Lab at Daytona last year, they had Christian Fittipaldi and Joao Barbosa on hand. They took the CTS-V and ATS-V out for a little comparison, and the CTS was 0.2 secs faster around the Daytona road course than the ATS. Both ran a 2:06
STM317 said:AnthonyGS said:And it always will be meh compared to its V8 brother. Next you’ll be telling me the evoboost mustang is better than a gt350 or a base corvette is better than a Z06. If Lightning Lap times are one of your rulers than the V8 pony cars are a lot better.
The new generation turbo pony cars are awesome, but they aren’t so awesome Ford and GM scraped their V8 engine programs. Is a caddy ATS better than a CTS-V? Is the VW golf better than the GTI or Golf R. Is the focus better than the ST ir RS? That’s my point. If you’re going in, then dive all the way unless economics or fuel mileage are important. When it comes to speed go all in because pony cars are heavy.
I get that. I'm not saying they're better. I'm saying the V8s are way out of this league in power and price. When comparing $25-30k, RWD, 2+2 sports coupes with 200-300hp saying "should've got the V8!" Isn't really pertinent because the comparable V8 is quite a bit more expensive and has like 35% more power.
This is GRM, and like most buyers of any product we tend to shop by price range. Economics are always a factor. Budgets are a thing for most people. If you could get the V8 cars with similar equipment as the V6 or turbo4 cars, for similar prices then that's what I'd be suggesting. But obviously that's not really an option. If it were, the OP probably wouldn't be shopping them against 200hp Momentum cars like the twins.
It's absurd to say that anything other than the highest performing version of a product is "meh". If that were true, your V8 Mustang would be "meh" too compared to the gt350. If BMW, or Porsche sold a RWD 2+2 with roughly 300/hp and 300tq that got 30mpg and sold for under $30k people would flip their E36 M3. The only reason people think these pony cars are "meh" is that they've always had burly V8s so that's what people associate with them. Next time you walk past a Cayman, are you going to say "psh, should've gotten the GT4 bro!"? Or when you see a ZO6, will you say to the owner "That was a nice car, until the ZR-1 came out. Sorry bout your second tier car man." Of course not, because a decent car is a decent car. It stands on its own merits, and competes against similar vehicles with similar specs and prices.
Is a $35k Mustang GT really that much more expensive than the $32k TRD?
In reply to z31maniac :
I guess not, assuming you can get a zero-optioned GT (maybe you can, I honestly don't know).
However, if the point of the car is to be competitive at autocross in a late-model rwd then you can do that for a lot less. This thread got me curious and it seems you can get a 2016-2017 Crammit 2.0T in the high teens. I don't see the V8 cars anywhere near those numbers.
Fanbois should take note: this is how to have a civil discussion.
In reply to AnthonyGS :
What's incredible to me, is that the "meh" ecoboost Mustang makes more HP and TQ than an 8 year old Mustang GT that people have V8 boners for. And it does it at lower rpms. And it's capable of 30mpg too. And if you gave people the choice between a 4.6 GT and a current ecoboost, you'd get a lot of people picking the V8 car because they think the V8 is better.
Sure the Coyote cars and the GT350 are on another performance plane, but this level of accessible performance is crazy and is worth celebrating.
AnthonyGS said:If Lightning Lap times are one of your rulers than the V8 pony cars are a lot better.
2016 Charger Hellcat 3:03.5
2017 Camaro V6 1LE 3:04.0
2011 Shelby GT500 3:04.0
2015 Mustang GT 3:05.2
2018 Camaro 2L 1LE 3:05.6
Why must a "pony car" be defined differently than a sports car?
Matt B said:In reply to z31maniac :
I guess not, assuming you can get a zero-optioned GT (maybe you can, I honestly don't know).
However, if the point of the car is to be competitive at autocross in a late-model rwd then you can do that for a lot less. This thread got me curious and it seems you can get a 2016-2017 Crammit 2.0T in the high teens. I don't see the V8 cars anywhere near those numbers.
Yes, you can.
There is a 2018 base Mustang GT for sale about 5 minutes from my office right now.
MSRP $35k
Advertised below $28k and I bet I could get them below $27 if I wanted it.
Just want to add that my V6 Camaro 6spd gets over 30mpg highway, with a 50 mile avg. best of 35.2mpg. My dad’s 2.0t auto has a 50 mile avg. best of over 41mpg. Both cars will run in the 13’s in the 1/4 mile. A 2012 GT will struggle to beat the 2.0t in that 1/4. That’s how far V6 and Turbo 4 Pony cars have come in a very short time.
STM317 said:racerfink said:I have a V6, my dad has a 2.0. The V6 has to run in F Street, with the V8 Mustangs and Camaros, and BMW M cars. The 2.0t gets to run in the same class as the Frisbee twins, and is a quicker car all around, plus a better street car than the twins. I’m really close to buying my dad’s car (he just turned 75 and the car just sits in his garage now) so I can autocross it. There are too many good F Street cars in my area to run my V6.
In addition to the Street classes, wouldn't any Camaro be eligible for CAM-C too? In fact, a 2.0 Camaro just won nationals in CAM-C.
Yea, but there is a Frisbee “spec” class introduced this year for them as well.
z31maniac said:Matt B said:In reply to z31maniac :
I guess not, assuming you can get a zero-optioned GT (maybe you can, I honestly don't know).
However, if the point of the car is to be competitive at autocross in a late-model rwd then you can do that for a lot less. This thread got me curious and it seems you can get a 2016-2017 Crammit 2.0T in the high teens. I don't see the V8 cars anywhere near those numbers.
Yes, you can.
There is a 2018 base Mustang GT for sale about 5 minutes from my office right now.
MSRP $35k
Advertised below $28k and I bet I could get them below $27 if I wanted it.
That seems like a helluva deal then. I'm still seeing used 2017 V8 mullet-mobiles in the low $30s here in ATL.
Matt B said:z31maniac said:Matt B said:In reply to z31maniac :
I guess not, assuming you can get a zero-optioned GT (maybe you can, I honestly don't know).
However, if the point of the car is to be competitive at autocross in a late-model rwd then you can do that for a lot less. This thread got me curious and it seems you can get a 2016-2017 Crammit 2.0T in the high teens. I don't see the V8 cars anywhere near those numbers.
Yes, you can.
There is a 2018 base Mustang GT for sale about 5 minutes from my office right now.
MSRP $35k
Advertised below $28k and I bet I could get them below $27 if I wanted it.
That seems like a helluva deal then. I'm still seeing used 2017 V8 mullet-mobiles in the low $30s here in ATL.
It's why I started a thread a few days ago going through the "Is it worth it" without the PP stuff. I think it is. But I'd miss the nice stereo and such. And really, it will be ok to sell the 135i and not have anything for awhile.
In reply to AnthonyGS :
I go back and forth in that area. Over the last 20 years, I’ve done “boring DD plus fun track toy” as well as “one car to rule them all.” There are pluses and minuses with each approach.
Sometimes it’s just easier to have one nice, newish, reliable car that can also hold up to the occasional trackday. Not all street driving is a boring slog. And trackdays can sometimes be more pleasurable when you don’t need to think about maintenance; just jump in and drive.
imo
The Camaro V6 1LE is way more fun for daily driving. You still need to rev the piss out of it to accelerate, but the great exhaust note and no lift shifts makes it more fun to do so. Unlike BRZ, turning on the A/C doesn't make it feel like you are towing something. It's also a much nicer place to be on a highway cruise. Modern looking interior, responsive touchscreen with iOS integration, and non offensive sound system. Heard rattling in both.
The Camaro slides into turns without any drama and is easily controllable with throttle. IMO, far better balanced than the stock BRZ (with upgraded tires) which was much more biased toward understeer. Suspension is slightly adjustable. With camber bolts, I am running -2.1/-1.2 f/r camber and 0 toe. Compared to my BRZ with modified suspension, the Camaro rotates slower, has much slower steering ratio, and you can really feel its size on tight turns (for example Thunderhill West turn 7). Visibility of the floor in front of you is piss poor. I think that would make it annoying to autocross.
Because the V6 1LE is so undesirable for general population, you can find them new for under $30k new. But if you're not going to be worrying about huge consumable costs for track, then I would recommend going with the SS or SS 1LE over the V6 1LE. The price difference is probably not that much for SS. If you're more hardcore into autocross, then I think the ND2 Miata would be a good choice, but I haven't personally driven that. For how little seat time you get with autocross, I don't think it's worth picking a car for it.
What dealership do you work for? Lol
The twins around here all seem to run in the SCC class?
Its a spec toyobaru class from what ive heard and seems to be extremely popular. Ridden in two of them prepped to a T to the rule book and they flat boogie. Its very surprising how quick they are with an off the shelf suspension package and some required Falken Azenis. No clue on engine mods though, i didnt really ask.
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