2010 Challenge Rules---First Draft

96DXCivic wrote: So what defines the locost versus the production car class if you can custom build the frame?

Andy's goal was to build a front engined NHRA 9 second legal 5 window coupe out of a VW Bug. The unibody was retained as much as was possible, but once those goals were in place, there were a lot of modifications necessary to be safe and legal. Pretty much looked like a unibody dropped on top of a ladder chassis.

A locost was never a production car, and doesn't retain anything. It is custom built from the beginning.

In referrence to the Bug build....The sections of frame were from a 1930 Chevrolet. The plan was to use the entire front section and box the channel. However, it was so rusted that it would not be safe. So it was visually duplicated with 25, 37 and 55 cents per pound scrap metal pieces that were fabbed to match the original frame dimensions. The original section over the rear was boxed with 1/8" plate that was a scraped cover plate for a transformer.

The build (specifically the rules) were discussed with Per a number of times. He stated that in another thread. The questions were asked categorically and I offered to share the build site on 2 occasions. That was not required.

Whether you liked the car or not, it is something we wanted to build. I was a bit burned out on Challenge car building and we wanted to do a 5 window coupe. We can't afford real steel. So, we built something we could afford with scrap metal and it is something with the styling desired. It is as grassroots as you can get. Hopefully, the car will inspire others to take on a radical build. Personally, I hope everyone enjoyed this family built car. It scratched my itch to chop a top and to cruise a little yellow coupe.

andy, i told you guys about 10 times in person,but the yellow car is the most phenomenal, fantastic, and awe inspiring build i've ever seen. absolutely legendary.

proud to have seen it in person. if you wanna sell it, i'll buy it ,ever. engine, no engine, no wheels, i dont care. absolutely awesome work. i hope you pass it on to greatgrandchildren. haha

I just bought a 1990 GTU rx7 for $700 and spent a total of $1100 after Reg and Smog. Can I just minus smog cost? I want to build this car for the 2010 challenge, since I been sitting and watching most of them go by, but I live in California and getting my car out to FL would be hard. Maybe I can just wait till 2011..

junpower wrote: I just bought a 1990 GTU rx7 for $700 and spent a total of $1100 after Reg and Smog. Can I just minus smog cost? I want to build this car for the 2010 challenge, since I been sitting and watching most of them go by, but I live in California and getting my car out to FL would be hard. Maybe I can just wait till 2011..

If $400 was on BS taxes, testing, and other non-car items, then it doesn't count. If $400 was spent on a tune up, new cat, etc, then it counts.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

junpower wrote: I just bought a 1990 GTU rx7 for $700 and spent a total of $1100 after Reg and Smog. Can I just minus smog cost? I want to build this car for the 2010 challenge, since I been sitting and watching most of them go by, but I live in California and getting my car out to FL would be hard. Maybe I can just wait till 2011..

If $400 was on BS taxes, testing, and other non-car items, then it doesn't count. If $400 was spent on a tune up, new cat, etc, then it counts.

Thanks Fees was $380 and smog was $70. So I can just say the car's cost was $700 It came with 17" wheels, a momo with quick release, and a full dual road race exhaust from racing beat not installed but came with the car. Can this all be $700 to start with?

junpower wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

junpower wrote: I just bought a 1990 GTU rx7 for $700 and spent a total of $1100 after Reg and Smog. Can I just minus smog cost? I want to build this car for the 2010 challenge, since I been sitting and watching most of them go by, but I live in California and getting my car out to FL would be hard. Maybe I can just wait till 2011..

If $400 was on BS taxes, testing, and other non-car items, then it doesn't count. If $400 was spent on a tune up, new cat, etc, then it counts.

Thanks Fees was $380 and smog was $70. So I can just say the car's cost was $700 It came with 17" wheels, a momo with quick release, and a full dual road race exhaust from racing beat not installed but came with the car. Can this all be $700 to start with?

Was it a deal that anyone could have gotten? If so, then yes - yo paid $700 for the car.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

junpower wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

junpower wrote: I just bought a 1990 GTU rx7 for $700 and spent a total of $1100 after Reg and Smog. Can I just minus smog cost? I want to build this car for the 2010 challenge, since I been sitting and watching most of them go by, but I live in California and getting my car out to FL would be hard. Maybe I can just wait till 2011..

If $400 was on BS taxes, testing, and other non-car items, then it doesn't count. If $400 was spent on a tune up, new cat, etc, then it counts.

Thanks Fees was $380 and smog was $70. So I can just say the car's cost was $700 It came with 17" wheels, a momo with quick release, and a full dual road race exhaust from racing beat not installed but came with the car. Can this all be $700 to start with?

Was it a deal that anyone could have gotten? If so, then yes - yo paid $700 for the car.

Thanks DILYSI,

How do I prove to them the parts came with the car? I have the new title but all the paperwork I got from the tow yard I bought the car from went to the DMV. Is there any way I can find or show proof of the cars price?

If you have, or can get, a copy of the ad that might help. Or maybe just type up a simple "Bill of Sale" for challenge-specific purposes with a list of the mods and a picture of the car, and take it to said towyard explaining what it's for. Since it wouldn't be legally binding or anything odd/threatening, they might be willing to help you out. That'd be just as legitimate as any receipt from a CL transaction.

unevolved wrote: If you have, or can get, a copy of the ad that might help. Or maybe just type up a simple "Bill of Sale" for challenge-specific purposes with a list of the mods and a picture of the car, and take it to said towyard explaining what it's for. Since it wouldn't be legally binding or anything odd/threatening, they might be willing to help you out. That'd be just as legitimate as any receipt from a CL transaction.

Thanks that reminds me I can probably go or call the tow yard and ask them for the lien sale paperwork. They probably have a copy of everything I handed in to the DMV. I did find it on CL but the ad was deleted since I have been driving this car for 3 weeks now. It passed the reliability test with only a failed fuel pump, I had a spare pump on hand so other than that the car is great. I hit a top speed of 128 the other day on HWY80.

Another Question. I got a lot of parts lying around so how do I estimate fair market value? Also engine swaps are legal? If the car is originally a non turbo can I swap in a 91 turbo motor that i got lying around without it being considered a modification or having to consider it towards the budget?

Let's say I have a set of stock Wheels with kumho V710 on them and I got them as a trade for a rx7 gas tank, What is the fair market value of the used tires? Kumho V710 225-50-16 on stock wheels so I guess wheels do not count.

Again if the car came with a full exhaust but was sitting in the trunk of the car do I have to add it into my budget?

I guess i'm only using 2 slicks for the drag portion if I do show up.

FMV - I like completed ebay ads that resulted in a sale for the same item for setting FMV.

Yes, engine swaps are legal. No you can't perform one without it hitting the budget. Add the FMV of the turbo motor.

Wheels and tires - I'd look for FMV on them. Depending on how good they are I'd say anywhere between 0 and 80% of the new price. And I'm not sure how you consider those wheels not to count. They do.

Parts included with the car, that were bought with the $700, are part of the $700 budget. If you bought the car, then the previous owner said "I've got this exhaust you can have for $100", then add $100.

Quit trying to complicate things.

wheels777 wrote: Hopefully, the car will inspire others to take on a radical build.

It did, Andy. I am building something for myself this year. And what is so funny is that I have looked at other cars over the years and said, "Self, you could do that..........". And now that I am doing it (sort of), it is even funnier to me that I didn't even know what I didn't know about building something serious. I am working quite hard on this project, but the learning curve that comes with doing a COMPLETE car (not just a turbo engine/trans. swap) is a steep hill to climb.....................but I am managing. And I am taking quite a bit of advice from the family (who are still a wee bit small to "hang around the shop") on colors and such.

-Les

DILYSI Dave wrote: FMV - I like completed ebay ads that resulted in a sale for the same item for setting FMV. Yes, engine swaps are legal. No you can't perform one without it hitting the budget. Add the FMV of the turbo motor. Wheels and tires - I'd look for FMV on them. Depending on how good they are I'd say anywhere between 0 and 80% of the new price. And I'm not sure how you consider those wheels not to count. They do. Parts included with the car, that were bought with the $700, are part of the $700 budget. If you bought the car, then the previous owner said "I've got this exhaust you can have for $100", then add $100. Quit trying to complicate things.

Thanks, That answered a lot of my questions. I guess it is time to comp the $700 dollar car cost and sell my motor and some of the interior to get me a Turbo II motor FML or Such,

Here is my Link to $2010 RX7 questions! http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/questions-about-prepping-a-2010-challenge-rx7/19944/page1/

kangyu wrote: ..... But we can choose where we spend eternity.

LOOK!!! someone launched a canoe! Sink it! Sink it fast!!!

I was talking to some of my engineering student buddies and we are very seriously considering doing the competition. One of them has a full machine shop complete with CNC machines. Do we have count machining time or anything like that since it is a professional machine shop?

If it's the school's shop and he gets access because he's a student, then no. If it's his professional shop that he usually charges for, then yes. If you're wanting to start up an official school team, contact me.

unevolved wrote: If you're wanting to start up an official school team, contact me.

I am also looking to start an official school team; however, I had a quick question about sponsor decals.

Are we allowed to have sponsor decals on the car besides the mandatory GRM ones? If so, do the cost of those decals have to go into the $2010 budget?

Thanks y'all!

It wouldn't be a school team but the guy owns his own machine shop. So even though he is on our team we would have to include machining time in our cost?

Sponsor decals aren't included in budget.

And I think that guy would have to budget time, yeah. I couldn't find it in the rules, but I'm pretty sure that he'd have to.

If he owns a for-profit machine shop then his labor should be charged.

If he privately owns a bunch of stuff that is essentially a home machine shop, and it is a hobby that he does not charge for, no charge to the budget.

There's probably a lot of gray areas in between.

What if he sometimes does machining work for profit but also uses it a lot for hobby stuff?

If all else fails, ask Per directly. This thread will get you a lot of people's opinions.

If it was me, and he honestly uses it a lot for hobby stuff, I'd just budget materials. Like SVreX said, it's a grey area. Probably not something someone's going to contest as long as you're up front about it.

i think the "spirit" of the rules as far as that goes is basically there to keep you from getting a shop to do the work for free.

after-hours work would be a grey area i'd say. my brother does quite a bit of "for profit" work from our home shop ...but i dont, and many more buddies dont pay to use it (aside from consumables costs)....

i