$2012 Challenge rules

I guess it makes sense, it just seems to be something of an open statement that the rules are more like suggestions. If the organizers are saying they don't want to take the time to enforce the rules, I think that will just open the doors for more "cheater" cars if people know there's no inspection.

Keep in mind, this is an editorial event with the intent to sell magazines. "15 second flat black car for $2 grand!" Doesn't sell magazines. That's not a diss on GRM, that's the reality. When it comes down to it, if you bring a $10,000 car to an event for $2,000 cars all in the hopes of winning a trophy and a set of tires, the fact that you're a berkeleying douchebag who has to live with himself every day for the rest of his douchey life should be punishment enough.

On the same token, if you're going to get all "WE GOT ROBBED!" because some other douche got a trophy and a t-shirt, and you got 32nd place instead of 31st, you and douchey mcdoucherson should start a club. I know, because I'm not only the Douchey McDoucherson club president, I'm also a member!

poopshovel wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

unevolved wrote: This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos. I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

Kumho makes out like a bandit. You want to win? You buy our tires. Oh, and you're still running our stickers. You will advertise for the things you bought. Too bad the size selection in the V710 and the XS sucks bad.

Man, please don't start with that bull E36 M3. Kumho is a SPONSOR of the Challenge. "Thanks for helping put on a really cool event" is a much better attitude to have. Yes, Kumho, like GRM, and every other business that still has its doors open, is in the business of making money. Get over it.

Sorry, there was supposed to be a "" at the end of the 2nd part. My mistake.

My last sentence still stands, though.

A lot of you guys are really getting the point of why we did this—and while the Kumho connection is nice, this is one of the real reasons:

mazdeuce wrote: I think it's a good change. I've never been to a challenge though I did build a car for one before my 8 months pregnant wife talked me out of it. One of the biggest challenges was tires. Even in the early years it was clear that good tire were important if you wanted to do well. I could get every part I needed to build my car easily on the open market, except for 'lightly used' take off autocross tires for a great deal like a few people happened to come across. You seemed to have to know a guy who was retiring a set of tires while they still had life in them instead of running them to cords like most penny pinching autocrossers. I also knew that even if I was to find one of these sweetheart deals, I'd still have to buy another set of tires for testing to preserve that tiny bit of rubber that was left on my 'competition' set of tires. Quite frankly, this makes me more likely to give the event another shot in the future. Pick up a car for a grand, get it mechanically sound, polish thing up, buy a set of tires and go play. For me, the money is easier to come up with that the super sweetheart tire deal. Time to hit Craigslist.

Yup. But all that said, you can have the best of both worlds. Hoosier has a closeout section. I'm guessing Kumho does too(?) Regardless, it's not like stickers are going to make the car that much faster than Nationals time take-offs with plenty of life left on them...which is the time to get used tires; right before Nats. Jesus people, how many times do I have to say it?

If there's a drag strip within a hundred miles, there is a pile of cheap drag slicks on CL. No, I'm not going to do your shopping for you.

poopshovel wrote: No, I'm not going to do your shopping for you.

Will you come with me and tell me how my ass looks?

poopshovel wrote: Jesus people, how many times do I have to say it?

More? The fact is that this rule change fixes the single most difficult 'shopping' part of prepping a challenge car while simultaneously making the title sponsor happy. Are people really that bent because they have to spend $500 more after spending a couple thousand on a car, gas to get there, hotel rooms and food and a couple hundred man hours on car prep? Or are people bent because their sweetheart tire deals aren't going to give them an advantage over the little guy without connections?

Would be great if it was Spec tire IMHO

AutoXR wrote: Would be great if it was Spec tire IMHO

There's probably too much variation in wheel size for that.

mazdeuce wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Jesus people, how many times do I have to say it?

More? The fact is that this rule change fixes the single most difficult 'shopping' part of prepping a challenge car while simultaneously making the title sponsor happy. Are people really that bent because they have to spend $500 more after spending a couple thousand on a car, gas to get there, hotel rooms and food and a couple hundred man hours on car prep? Or are people bent because their sweetheart tire deals aren't going to give them an advantage over the little guy without connections?

Well... it's not just $500, that's probably what the problem is. Not trying to make this all about me, because that's not the larger picture but:

$500 would buy a set of Kumho XS. 1) IF they made them in a size that i can use with the wheels that i spent months trying to find. 2) The XS will still be slow in this field.

$1200 would buy me a set of V710s in a size that works. 1) $1200 is a lot more dough than $500, especially for a tire that can't be driven on the street, and shares no sizes with anything else i own. 2) I don't have $1200.

That's really all the complaining. I mean, additionally i do find it a little annoying that i have to FMV my 4 year old well-used Hankook RS2s, while brand spanking new Kumhos are free. More budget hit.... for.... lesser performance.

But... on the plus side, i was already planning on FMVing said crusty old tires, so it doesn't really change anything in terms of what i'll do, because i really don't have the option of changing things with the "Kumho Clause" anyways.

But if it really makes the job of the staff easier, then i'll support it in that manner. I know the logistics of this event has to be a nightmare.

MG Bryan wrote:

AutoXR wrote: Would be great if it was Spec tire IMHO

There's probably too much variation in wheel size for that.

Yep. Kumho seems to cater to the crowd who runs wheel size "big."

(Don't know what happened with the 265/45-16 XS. I might have been able to make that one work.)

As long as Kumho doesn't dump the V710s in 13s...

MG Bryan wrote:

poopshovel wrote: No, I'm not going to do your shopping for you.

Will you come with me and tell me how my ass looks?

Yes, but you can only buy Kum-hoe brand thongs, and they probably don't make them in your size.

mazdeuce wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Jesus people, how many times do I have to say it?

More? The fact is that this rule change fixes the single most difficult 'shopping' part of prepping a challenge car while simultaneously making the title sponsor happy. Are people really that bent because they have to spend $500 more after spending a couple thousand on a car, gas to get there, hotel rooms and food and a couple hundred man hours on car prep? Or are people bent because their sweetheart tire deals aren't going to give them an advantage over the little guy without connections?

Oh please...as the poopmaster pointed out, deals are out there everywhere. Just need to look

My issue is this: most spent some money on tires. New kuhmos are likely better than most used tires and do not hit the budget. That then frees budget money previously spent on tires for more performance goodies, which drives out of pocket costs up if one wants to be competitive in the event.

For example, lets take a made up Challenger, who I wil call Pat (ha ha). Brilliant, smart, handsome, but he's fairly competitive. If he took his car from last year where he spent $300 on tires and wanted to be a contender in 2012, he would buy new kuhmos for $1k. Why? He will not only will have better rubber which is key, but he will also have $300 of budget room that he would have spent on tires that he now can spend on performance goodies to make the car faster...which he knows he will need to do to keep up with his competitors. He now has a faster car with is bigger turbo or coilovers but it cost an extra $1k out of pocket to make it happen.

Like it or not, racers are compeitors by nature. That is part of why most do this. keep driving out of pocket costs up and fewer will be willing to put the time and effort in building cars that dont really fit anywhere else.

We were down to 40 some odd cars last year. I fear this will reduce that further.

In reply to Pat: But there are already a ton of areas where you have to make choices. If you keep stock brakes then you can run new pieces without a budget hit, but if you upgrade them then it costs. Same with a cage, bolts and it's free, welding and it costs coin. Let's not even start with seats and belts. Now tires (at least some of them) are on the list of things that you have to make these decisions on. It would be nice to see no budget for all tires using this logic, but khumo puts down the money and they get preferential treatment.
When I backed out of the challenge so many years ago I sent Tim a not explaining that I just couldn't put in the time to finish the car and head to Florida while still taking care of my one year old and my pregnant wife. I did this to make sure that my place could be taken if needed and told him to spend my entry money on beer for everyone. Instead he sent me a refund check and a note that asked me to come back when life allowed. I think Tim and everyone involved have always tried to make this easier for us to participate in, not harder, and I think this rule has that effect. I will make it to the challenge one of these years, and I'll probably be building the car with the help of my son who was in my wife's belly back then. Nothing is perfect, but the $ challenge is still pretty damn good.

To Pat:

I understand that side of the argument. Try to understand mine: When we showed up with the turd on two $90/ea. NOS closeout A3S04's, with two crusty A3S04's on the rear, all mounted on $50/ea. (when new) Diamonds, Team Chalky claimed we had "$1,000 worth of wheels and tires."

The next year I approached them in the parking lot on night one and said, "Here's our wheels and tires. Use them first, and we'll use up what's left." But they didn't want them, because they had "better, cheaper" tires. Go figure.

My point: Someone's always going to bitch that "There's no way so and so only paid this for that," at which point, they'll either find a good deal themselves, or say "everyone else is cheating, I should too!"

Secondly: If the argument against the rule change is "I can't be competitive unless I have good tires, so I'm not going to show up," well yeah dude, it's been that way for a while. Did you think you were going to slay the autocross on all seasons and steelies?

The budget hit exemption for kumhos only angst I get. Seems like there could be a treadwear rule + rebate from kumho with proof that you ran their tires instead, but I guess that's why I'm not on the board at Kumho.

Oh, and Pat, you are a deliciously handsome genius, and I think cars like the scAries are what the Challenge is all about.

poopshovel wrote: I think cars like the scAries are what the Challenge is all about.

+1....I love seeing the fabrication that people do, and your fender flares were great.

JoeyM wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I think cars like the scAries are what the Challenge is all about.

+1....I love seeing the fabrication that people do, and your fender flares were great.

+2....my aborted challenger was the k-tona, same idea, but you did things so so much better. No matter what the rules do, this sort of thing must continue.

In reply to poopshovel:

I hear you...and I see your point also. I just hate to see a change that is made because of a few who complain have a negative impact on the event.

And thanks guys...the car was a blast to build. As a matter of fact, its getting pounded on this Sunday at a local autox.

Pat wrote: And thanks guys...the car was a blast to build. As a matter of fact, its getting pounded on this Sunday at a local autox.

I was especially pleased to see that your fender flare fabrication technique was very similar to the way I built my cowl and grill shell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3OAldwFGh0&list=UUUb_f3wErXYHStC5Xi9qgLQ&index=17&feature=plcp
After seeing how nice your stuff turned out, it gave me hope for my build.

poopshovel wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

unevolved wrote: This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos. I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

Kumho makes out like a bandit. You want to win? You buy our tires. Oh, and you're still running our stickers. You will advertise for the things you bought. Too bad the size selection in the V710 and the XS didn't suck bad.

Man, please don't start with that bull E36 M3. Kumho is a SPONSOR of the Challenge. "Thanks for helping put on a really cool event" is a much better attitude to have. Yes, Kumho, like GRM, and every other business that still has its doors open, is in the business of making money. Get over it.

Agreed, Kumho has been a welcome long term sponsor for no appreciable reason for years, this alone is a fair reason for them to request a return on the investment.

I still think this tire rule is watering down the event IMHO

It has kind of weird ramifications.

To the half dozen or so potential event winners, it is not a game changer. Winning the Challenge is an enormous combination of raw building talent, serious racing capability, blood, sweat, tears, and luck. That won't change. And there ARE still people who can win without Kumhos.

Then there is the rest of us. The wishfuls, the hopefuls, the wannabes. My highest placing was 13th in a pack of 77 cars. I have done worse every year. I accepted a long time ago that I do not have the resources (skill, time, and talent) to win this event, but I love coming mostly out of sheer admiration of the talent. Most folks like me really can't win. We come the first time hopeful, but the truth is the podium is out of reach for us (leaving us hoping to go home with the "Worst Bribe", or MAYBE if the stars align and we do something wild (though ineffective), the "Competitor's Choice".

I would bet that 70% of the competitors are like me and fall into this category (although half of them won't admit it).

So for the 70%, the tire dilemma is quite a conundrum. Do I spend an extra $1K on tires with the knowledge that I still won't win?

I would really like to support the sponsors, but the math isn't really compelling to me. I am absolutely convinced that the top 10 slots would likely remain unchanged with or without the tires. The bottom 10 slots will also remain unchanged, but they are smart enough to know they aren't gonna win, so they won't buy ANY tires. It comes down to whether it really matters to me if I can move from 17th to 14th by spending a lot on tires. It does not.

But I do buy Kumhos every chance I can for my street drivers, solely because they sponsor the event. I wear their shirts, I brag on their company, I recommend them to friends. Isn't that REALLY the point?

I like giving a Kumho advantage. Maybe bonus concourse points, or free to the budget used Kumhos, or an extra banquet ticket or tee shirt if you can show a receipt for buying new Kumhos. But I am not sure how I feel about this idea as presented.

I definitely fall into the 70%, and I am not ashamed to admit it. $800+ tires won't change that...will probably buy kumho street tires to save $500 and still not have to put tires in the budget.

I would probably get the cheaper, non-sticky street kumhos even if I was a faster driver and a better fabricator; a specials class car isn't allowed to win any of the normal trophies, anyway.

I think that this rule will encourage more participation not less. Let's face it, 80% of autocross performance is tires. If you couldn't score some good tires your remaining 20% wasn't going to matter. This should level the playing field and allow more, not less, teams to be in the hunt. It will showcase car building. It will allow prior year cars a nice budget bump on their return. Any racing takes money. Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? Even the "$500" LeMons cars are really about $4,000 with budget exempt stuff like, wheels, tires, brakes, transponders, safety gear, etc. Even with new tires, this event is still way down on the budget scale.

Argo1 wrote: Any racing takes money.

That is dangerously close to contradicting what I understand to be one of the foundational original purposes of the event... to show that real racing can happen and very fast cars can be built on very limited budgets.

SVreX wrote:

Argo1 wrote: Any racing takes money.

That is dangerously close to contradicting what I understand to be one of the foundational original purposes of the event... to show that real racing can happen and very fast cars can be built on very limited budgets.

+1