2020 Toyota GR Supra

dculberson said:

Why buy this over the z4? 

See, this is a better question.

And the answer is: I'm not sure yet.

Honestly I need to sit down and compare spec for spec and dollar for dollar with both configurators at some point. At this point, as cars, I feel they're close, but the Supra felt... sharper? More urgent? than the Z4 we had recently. Part of that could have been the conditions. I mostly drive the Supra on teh track while I drove the Z4 entirely on the street. But if both were lined up in the paddock and I had to take some laps, I'd grab the Supra key first.

I am focusing on how it works.  An 8 spd auto is fine for a daily driver or even drag racer.  Having driven PDK and manual cars in a hurry, I haven’t found a torque converter equipped trans their equal yet.  We all know manuals are a dying thing, but returning to torque converters in celebration isn’t enticing when auto shift dual clutch transmissions are common tech.  

This just feels like toyota accounting made this decision and the engineers made the best of an e36 m3 sandwich.  Color me sad.  

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

Because modern BMWs are a pain in the ass to own? I have a bunch of acquaintances working at the bmw dealer here in San Antonio which is now the biggest in north america and they have a comical amount of work. 

But, I also think it's inadequately differentiated as far as the interior and inelegant on the exterior. I just don't think you should put a halo nameplate on somebody else's mid-range with anything less than a stunning rework, especially when the bmw and toyota reputations for reliability are polar opposites. It may be a good car in its own right, but it's still sort of analogous to a Chrysler Crossfire in the context of trying to halo-ize somebody else's midrange car and analogous to a Crossfire is something I just wish a Supra wasn't. 

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

If the new corvette came out and was a rebodied mustang maybe you’d understand. To us it’s an insult. 

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

"Everyone is getting way too hung up on details...."

Seriously?  LOL.....

Pinanafarina as a styling company is cool. Toyota as a styling company is not cool. 

None of that takes away from it being a good car which it appears to be. I hope it finds the buyers that Toyota is looking for.

From what I understand the Supra is meant to be a direct competitor to the Cayman and the Z4 to the Boxter. they are aping certain details such as the wheelbase at 97.4 inches, and at a lower price point especially optioned out. I think that if enough of these sell, there will be a manual transmission in its future, in the mean time people will definitely gripe about it, then when it comes out 15 to 20% of Supra buyers will opt for the manual.

I could have gotten one of the first batch of these new Supras to hit the dealers.  I’ve been waiting for this car for a long time, but I wasn’t obsessing over the interminable wait and rumors.  I thought Toyota would get it right.

I was wrong.  The FRS should have warned me.  I bought two of them new.  Tracked them.  But the Subaru collaboration should have been the tip-off.  Toyota is SO risk adverse, despite their vast R&D budget, they won’t risk a clean sheet design.

I’d have been happy with the ISF/RCF motor stuffed into a FRS.  I’d have been happy with a lightweight “Supra” version of the RCF as long as it had a manual transmission.  But a 2 seater with a BMW turbo drivetrain?  No thanks, I’d rather have a root canal.  BMW lost me when they dropped the V8 from the M3 (and F**ked with the BMW model designations since time immemorial). The latest crop of turbo BMWs are maintenance nightmares.  The BMW fanboys will continue to line up for whatever Munich churns out, M2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.

Supra fans will just be sad.

Great coverage. I can't help wonder how Toyota (and other press departments) view GRM. Years ago, GRM probably didn't even get an invite; too little, too specialized, not part of some giant conglomerate. Now, they have the highest page count, the most loyal readers, a large circulation, and a massive web presence, so they definitely get an invite.  But while they must worry about other hack journalists stuffing their press fleet into the tire wall, they probably wait for GRM to see what their cars can really do on track. Regardless of my feelings about the car being covered, the coverage was top-notch. 

JG Pasterjak said:

Serious question: Why is this a bad thing?

Why is it a good thing? I mean for us, not for Toyota. I get it for them, the domestics have done it forever, esp Chrysler. It looks fine, I'm sure it works fine. So yeah, it's fine... is that really a good thing? With the rabid popularity of the Supra namesake (whatever the reason and regardless if you feel it's valid or not), they could have resurrected the name to give the fans of the name something really cool. Instead, they gave us something that's fine. Yes, it's easy and cheap for them and they'll sell a bunch of them by calling it a Supra.

The looks have somewhat grown on me, I no longer think it's repulsive, I think it's fine (I actually dig the rear quarter angle). I'm sure the transmission is fine, the performance is fine. It's a perfectly adequate sports car for a reasonable price. I will consider picking up a used one in a few years if the values don't hold up, as my wife outgrows the BRZ on track.

But why call it a Supra? It's like when Dodge brought back the Charger name for a 4 door derp sedan. It's just a way to capitalize on the credit from the name while burning the minimum amount of dollar calories.

And they clearly know it. That's why they arranged this whole youtuber apology session (who I think got screwed because now we get flooded with a dozen of these videos at once), trying to convince us that it's not a BMW, that they have their own engine tune, transmission tune, suspension and chassis. If you don't look behind the curtain, that sounds like it's really a totally different car since they hit on most of the major components. But the reality is that any one of us muppets can change out the dampers and springs to whatever, put on a carbon hood and hatch, flash a tune... and what, we can claim that we just built our own car from scratch? Nope, just a modded BMW. Hell, my car has nothing left from the factory besides some of the unibody sheet metal and the windshield. I still call it an E30. 

It's not a bad thing. It's just not good, it's fine. And they could have done much better than fine. What if Honda or Ford rebadged a Cayman and called it an NSX or GT, with some new bodywork, suspension bits and tune, would it be a good thing? 

Really can't get over the looks of this thing at any angle.  That, plus no manual (and a torque converter!), and a BMW underneath, kinda kills any desire for them.  Cayman is a better car, for me, on almost every dimension (better looking, manual, lighter, etc.)

In reply to BigD :

Well said.  

Also, seems quite a few of us here have/had twins.  

In reply to maj75 :

Made me think how awesome the IS F v8 being stuffed in this new Supra. Goodness! 

It's weird seeing iDrive and almost the same shifter as a new 3-series in a Toyota. 

I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!

So much hate, it's hysterical. From watching the videos, that 8spd seems to shift even faster than the DCT in my 135. Who cares what the actual tech is as long as it performs well?

I'm trying to understand the hate about "derp it's a BMW engine derp derp" it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car? It just went from $50k to $90k. 

But please, keep complaining about a car you never intended to buy regardless. 

dculberson said:

Why buy this over the z4? 

I'm trying to find specific numbers, but I believe that the Supra is a couple hundred lbs lighter than the Z4.

For those of you up in arms about Torque Converter! I ask whether you've ever driven a car with one of these modern ZF paddle shift automatics. They've set the standard for sports cars and sports sedans for more than a decade and are really, really good.

I think it's a pretty good-looking car, and I don't care that it has BMW parts, and I don't have a big problem with the manually shiftable auto trans. If I had the money for one of these, I might consider buying one. The trouble is that it starts well above the base price of a Giulia and is getting close to the price of a Corvette or Cayman. The Supra has some advantages, it should be cheaper to run than the others and is much smaller than the Corvette. But then it's not nearly as fast as a Corvette, and it also doesn't have an H-pattern manual option which is a negative for a mixed street/track car IMO, mainly because an H-pattern is more enjoyable to drive but also because it's more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

If they knocked 10 grand off of the price of this car it would both give it a sizable price advantage over the competition and put it closer to the reach of Gen. Y'ers who are more likely to want a car called a Supra. At this price point it has to compete not only with more prestigious and sometimes much faster new cars, but also with compelling used/aftermarket options like a modded Toyobaru, a used Elise, or a used Viper. It might end up being the Han Solo movie of cars: pretty good in itself, but not good enough to draw customers away from the competition it gave itself.

The only reason they're using a BMW engine is because they're using a BMW car. They put 300+hp 2GR toyota 6cyls in $100k Lexus cars and 400+hp variants in Lotii. It's not that they couldn't use an engine they already had or that it wouldn't be good enough, it's that it wouldn't be worth the money to engineer a toyota engine into a bmw car. So, the fundamental problem of the toyota halo car isn't that it has a bmw engine, it's that it's not a toyota car. 

I'm so totally onboard with Mr. Toyoda's drive to make Toyota make sporty cars again, but a 'decent badge engineering job on a pretty good bmw' is not really what anyone wanted to see. No, im not paying Toyota to make what i want, but neither is Toyota paying me to NOT express my opinion about it. For the record, my silence is certainly for sale. PM/DM for pricing options. 

I think it looks great. If it really does offer Cayman S performance under a Toyota badge at $50k, I could see myself owning one of these. 

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't think it's a fair write off opinions on a car based on whether or not people holding those opinions can afford the car in question or not.

As others have pointed out, there are a few avenues of criticism that warrant at least some discussion. It really does seem like Toyota missed the mark by not leveraging the performance platforms from the rest of their portfolio (IS/RC/LC) in order to give the Supra a truly Toyota lineage.

I'm sure the MKV Supra will be a good car to drive, but will it actually live up to the Supra name? It's hard to say definitively. But it does feel like they played it too conservative in sharing so much of the platform with another company.

MichaelYount said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW.  Nothing new to see here.

Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo.  I mean they killed the Supra in 98,  then the next sports car  they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later?  I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.

Vigo said:

For the record, my silence is certainly for sale. PM/DM for pricing options. 

Quoteworthy!

It's their "flagship model" that they spent so many years teasing. And it's not really a collaboration, let's be honest here. It's a Z4 coupe with a body designed by Toyota, built by Magna Steyr in Austria. 

I could be in the target market and can absolutely afford the car, but it's just such a bummer to see every little thing you touch and see and hear inside the car be pulled directly from BMW. Toyota's flagship sports car has a BMW key, a BMW drivetrain, BMW iDrive, and goes blungggg when you open the door. They have succeeded at making a Z4 coupe, but it is disappointing because of so much buildup that lead to what quacks and walks like a BMW.

It's great that it's so good to drive, because I always saw the older Mk3/4 Supras as big GT cars. So yay, it's a sports car and it can exist in the 2019+ market of bland crossovers. That is fantastic and should not be discounted.

But really, the door chime? That's just some quick programming that was lazily ignored.

MTechnically said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't think it's a fair write off opinions on a car based on whether or not people holding those opinions can afford the car in question or not.

As others have pointed out, there are a few avenues of criticism that warrant at least some discussion. It really does seem like Toyota missed the mark by not leveraging the performance platforms from the rest of their portfolio (IS/RC/LC) in order to give the Supra a truly Toyota lineage.

I'm sure the MKV Supra will be a good car to drive, but will it actually live up to the Supra name? It's hard to say definitively. But it does feel like they played it too conservative in sharing so much of the platform with another company.

Where did I say anything about "afford" I said "never intended to buy."

As the post above me shows, there are plenty of people on this forum that can afford a $50-60k vehicle. We knew this was a BMW/Toyota collaboration for years now, so I'm confused about the OUTRAGE that seems to have popped up. 

It has a slick new auto that shifts just as fast, if not faster, than the DCT in my car. Makes plenty of power, has lots of tire, runs a 4 sec 0-60. 

I'm sure the B58 reponds well to tuning and mods (the N55 in my car picks up 70hp and 100lb-ft with just a tune, still on 91).

"It's not Toyota enough" if it was, it wouldn't exist. Just like the Twins, of which I owned one. 

Sorry I get tired of the constant hate for cars that aren't 100% perfect (which they will never be for anyone), let's be happy they exist, and use our dollars to go out and buy them so they keep exisiting. 

I fully intend to put my money where my mouth is and trade my 135 in on one next year.