2024 Miata vs Used Cayman

dps214 said:

Maybe I'm richer than I realize but I don't find the ownership costs unreasonable. Insurance varies wildly by state and situation and I honestly haven't looked at my policy for a while but I don't remember the cost being out of line with other "normal" vehicles I've owned. If the difference between a $40 oil change and a $90 oil change once or twice a year is that big of an issue, you probably shouldn't be spending $30-50k on *any* car. But it is a good idea to do some reasearch and not go into any car purchase totally blind to long term costs. New car warranties are nice, that part is definitely worth something when weighing the options.

You can't even buy an oil change kit for $90 for a Cayman if you're doing it yourself and using quality synthetic. Stock sized set of tires $1500+, etc. 

We don't have a truck and I'm not putting used oil in either in the car. Not to mention, I just don't like doing that stuff anymore, so I won't get into what stuff like changing the oil or plugs cost even at one of the few Indy shops here I trust. 

Eight quarts of amsoil euro spec oil is $70, and I can't remember ever paying more than $20 for a filter

Ecs02 in stock 981 sizes are $1260/set. Stock Miata size is $750. Yes that's a decent difference in up front cost but over the life of the tires it's a single digit or very low double digit $ per month difference. Again, worth knowing but not earth shattering.

I will be the first to advise that a Porsche is a bad (or at least very costly) idea if you're not willing to do a decent portion of the work on it yourself.

I'm assuming we're cross shopping newer Caymans, but I wouldn't bother with anything M97 powered over an ND unless you just like getting kicked in the balls occasionally.

This is fun

I cross shopped NC2 with my 986 and ended up in the 986. Not relevant here but fun to read

Wally World will ship 10 quarts of Mobil 1 to my door for $50. Bulk buy oil filters at RA and oil changes at least are not a huge cost. P car parts are more than anything else I've worked on but doable for me if I DIY. 
 

I wanted to like the Miata and be one of you guys. I really did. But it just didn't excite me. The flat 6 noises hooked me immediately 

FWIW, my last Cayman oil change was $35 worth of Costco oil and a $10 filter. And at least the 981s are really, really easy to work on...

...if you have a lift and a good scan tool. But those are sort of prerequisites for any major jobs on any modern car. 

This post won't help your current decision in any way, shape or form. 

Years ago, I test drove a plethora of cars, mainly focusing on an ND, 987 S and a Honda S2000. I ended up with the S2000. I've since test driven a few ND's and a 987 Cayman S... the S2000 is still in my garage. 

Like several of the other folks in this thread mentioned, at my size, I just can't comfortable in the ND, whereas both the S2000 and 987 fit me like a glove. 

Around town, the ND can be a ton of fun at low speeds, whereas it took just a bit of extra prodding in the 987. I found the S2000 to be in the middle of the 2- more fun than the 987 at lower speeds (greater sensation of speed), with more interior space and a more interesting powertrain than the ND. If you told me I had to wrench on one of the 3, without hesitation, it would be the S2000- it's likely the easiest car to work on I've ever experienced in my life. Tires/consumables are reasonable, Honda reliability/ease of maintenance, a fairly large aftermarket, they've been appreciating in value for years and Hagerty insured it for around $550/year. 

I can't speak for the 981. But I figured if you were shopping lighter weight sports cars, I would share my findings. 

Like others have mentioned though, you really never know until you get behind the wheel and pitch one around for yourself. 

Much appreciate all the advise and perspectives! Ultimately driving them will indeed be the greatest deciding factor, so I've been looking more into how I can make it happen. I also hadn't heard about collectors insurance - definitely will be looking into that. The car will be my daily, but I don't have much of a commute and generally don't drive much (likely could stay under 8k miles a year easily).

I'm also taking a closer look into price of ownership on the Cayman. Responses (including here) seem to range between 'not bad' to 'it'll bankrupt you,' so it's definitely a big point of concern. I've inquired into a 17 Cayman S manual in Lava Orange/PTV/PASM sport fork ~$51k. Very much at the top of my budget, but really a perfect package overall.

I've also been considering the S2000 and Lotus Evora. I've heard lots of great things about the S2000, but the value seems somewhat middling to me. Prices seem to be around ~$30k, which puts it between a 987.2 and 981 Cayman, while being older than both and having about the same number of miles. The Evora seems to sit right around 718 Cayman/Cayman S pricing while being 7 years older (though generally fewer miles). I hear great things about the Evora's steering, though definitely have some concerns about reliability of everything that's not the engine or the transmission.

In reply to Phoenix864 :

I personally struggle to get excited about the four cylinder cars but that 718S sounds like a pretty good deal if it doesn't have a billion miles on it.

I want to want an evora but I'm also apprehensive about reliability, and they seem to hold value about the worst of any of the cars discussed here. Especially in the range it sounds like you're looking at, the transmission and shifter quality/feel are a big weak point. I'd like to test drive one at some point to see what it's like though.

I really think s2000 values are a bubble that's going to burst sometime maybe soon, but that might just be me projecting my general disinterest in them.

I only buy toys where I can afford to walk away from the dead carcass and have this guys attitude:

I could do that with the Miata, not the Porsche. Meaning that the Porsche would own me, not the other way around.

Regarding collector insurance, here's some background: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/why-you-need-specialty-insurance/

Note you'll almost always need a separate daily driver. 

In reply to Phoenix864 :

I didn't realize you were also looking into an Evora. I actually drove one not too long ago and wrote my impressions down: 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/random-car-reviews-tales-from-a-nut-with-too-much-time-on-his-hands/262322/page3/#post3962051

The last time I drove a Cayman S it was a 987.1 (987.2's are tough to find! Damn recession ruined it for us all!). I drove my somewhat lower mileage 2008 AP2 S2000 to the dealership so I could make a fair assessment. I preferred driving my S2000 by the slimmest of margins. I did love the 987S though- when you find a twisty road, they're so confidence inspiring and make a wonderful noise! My wife tried to convince me that we needed them both- I couldn't justify it financially, otherwise I would probably own both. 
 

My wife used to own an ND1. We've driven a few ND's over the years, to include most recently an ND3, that we also drove back to back with my S2000 (wrote a review about it in the same thread listed above). Honestly I just don't fit (especially with the top up), which took away some of the fun factor for me. But regardless, my wife and I both preferred the S2000 (see thread for details), which is a shame, as I'm a Miata guy at heart- if you include my wife's old ND1, we've owned all 4 generations over the years (3 NA's, x2 NB's including a MSM, an NC2 and her ND1). But the S2000 is more or less a Miata with the knobs turned up to 11, with better/more rearward weight distribution and more space under the hood to work. If I was buying another Miata it would be the NC- it's the one I fit in and also feels like ~85-90% of the car the S2000 is, for half the money. 
 

In the 5 years I've owned my AP2, that included a full season of autoX, here's an exhaustive list of everything that went wrong (preventative maintenance & tires notwithstanding): 

-The clutch started sticking once a few years back. I bled it with clean fluid and it's been perfect ever since. 
-I had to replace a gas cap a few years ago. 
 

That's it. In 5 years, the total cost of "failures" has been less than $40, obviously that's not counting normal fluid/filter changes or the set of brand new Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires I just recently bought ($1000, only because I wanted another set of Michelin's- plenty of other good tires for $700-$800). While age is certainly a factor, these cars are as reliable as an anvil and mine has held up extremely well for a 16 year old car. 
 

Note: if I was shopping a Cayman vs an Evora, for a pure weekend car in an area near twisty roads, I might lean towards the Evora, maybe (it is certainly a very interesting/special driving experience)... for a daily, no way in hell. For a sports car daily there's a reason that Porsche likely sells 10 Cayman's for every 1 Evora that Lotus sells. The Cayman is far more comfortable, has far superior build quality and more usability. The Evora is a special machine, but there's no way in this world I would want to daily one in traffic. 

I can't speak to caymans, but on my 996 Turbo, which I've owned for over 6 years, this is the list of things that's gone wrong/broken.

#1  I bought it with a bad clutch slave accumulator

#2  I bought it with a bad microswitch that power the rear wing up/down.

Since fixing those things, both of which are common faults on this car, nothing else has broken or gone wrong.  In my experience, Porsches are extremely durable, reliable cars that take anything you throw at them, including track duty, in stride with no issues.  None of the other cars I've had have been able to, box stock, hit the track and not have some sort of issue.

I'm sure this is going to jinx me, but I bought my 981S at a little over 60k miles in 2019 and it's now approaching 95k. The only true part failure it's had in that time was a turn signal bulb. $2 and five minutes to replace. This summer the headliner glue finally started failing (common issue) which is $100-800ish to repair depending on how you go about it (diy reglue to new OEM unit). Probably the one unusual maintenance item on these cars (manual trans at least) is the clutch is not super robust. Depending on use and driver skill they can last quite a while but it's not uncommon to need to replace it at 50k miles or less if it's lived a hard life. Mine was a little weak for a while but had been soldiering on just fine. I finally gave in and replaced it last winter, I had already put it off a year and wanted to stop worrying about it. It wasn't entirely clear if that was the original clutch or not, but if it was it went 90k miles and wasn't totally dead. Added bonus, because of the way Porsche does part sharing, the gt4 clutch kit is actually cheaper than the base/S kit and is a direct fit. So you get a more robust clutch and slightly better feeling clutch pedal...for 2/3 the cost of the stock replacement.

My 986 base with 123k miles (40k of those from me) has only needed an AOS, axle boots and a coolant tank. Oh and gears for the convertible top transmission. I've done a few other things just because like a motor mount, bump stops and and sway bar end links. Not bad for a car that's daily driven I think. 
 

Im encouraged to believe the cars are very well built when people like Jason Cammissa talk about how well they hold up to testing. He was saying the P cars run test and after test and lap after lap without complaint. Many other cars will over heat or go into limp mode or something like that. Porsche builds a car to be used. 
 

Not that a Miata can't do the same but no one is surprised when those are reliable. 

In reply to dps214 :

I've been waiting for my clutch to go bad.  Stock my car came with 415hp, I'm running something north of 600hp and even more torque than that through the same factory clutch with no issues.  When the clutch finally decides to start to slip is when I'll drop the motor and replace the clutch, take care of the welding the coolant lines and replace all the plastic/rubber bits.

They seem fairly robust as long as you're nice to them. But basically any amount of clutch slip under power and they're not long for the world. It's made me take note of how many people are bad at shifting to second on autocross runs. Corvettes and other cars seem to be able to get away with it, these cars you can do it maybe 2-3 times before things start going bad.

On thing I've enjoyed about my 987.2 S is the ability to blow past S2000s at track days. The only thing I've had to replace on my Cayman is the headliner - I paid $750 to a pro to do it because I wanted it done correctly.

Yeah, headliner seems to be a weak link in these as I had to do the same on my 987.2. Since I had it out decided to go with alcantara for a bit of added bling.  

RacerBoy75 said:

On thing I've enjoyed about my 987.2 S is the ability to blow past S2000s at track days. The only thing I've had to replace on my Cayman is the headliner - I paid $750 to a pro to do it because I wanted it done correctly.

I suppose it's all about perspective, isn't it? The last time I took a near bone stock, full weight, 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, with it's rolly stock suspension and "mighty" B18C1 170hp engine out to High Plains Raceway (essentially to get a baseline in the car), I had a blast chasing down and getting point by's from a plethora of cars I had no business chasing down- a couple modded WRX/STI's, an E46 M3, FK8 Civic Type R, Porsche 996, a plethora of BMW's and what appeared to be some substantially modified Miata's (NA's, NB's and an NC with a giant wing/front splitter). I even played cat and mouse with someone in their brand new C8 Corvette for several laps (admittedly, by our 3rd session he figured the track out enough that I could no longer keep up with him). All in a gutless FWD 90's Honda, with the only mods being a Comptech header (maybe 5hp?), 200tw Continental tires (on stock wheels) and a set of Hawk HP+ pads, not counting reliability mods (baffled Moroso oil pan, Koyo radiator and a set of floor mounted Corbeau seats to help me fit with a helmet). 

I've always enjoyed chasing down higher powered, higher priced cars on track in lowly underpowered E36 M3boxes. Admittedly, there have been a few times over the years where I would have liked more power, if for no other reason than to have the option to pass on the straights, but I have always enjoyed watching a car pull away from me like I'm standing still on the back straight at HPR, only to be right on his tail by the time we exit the corkscrew. 

I suppose we all enjoy different things for different reasons. 

With that said, congrats on finding and owning a 987.2 S! I've wanted to find one to drive for a while now- I've driven a few 987.1's over the years (both in Cayman S and Boxster S forms), but finding a 987.2 S in a manual locally is like searching for the lost city of El Dorado in New Hampshire! 

The thing is it's a sliding scale. A cayman s really isn't all that fast in the grand scheme of track cars these days. I have pretty much that same experience but with gt3/4s, fancy mustangs and Camaros, etc. I'm just doing it in a car that's capable of getting out of its own way and passing on straights without the other car needing to use the brakes. Call it the best of both worlds I guess.

In reply to dps214 :

I would agree that it's a fun game, no matter which price bracket you're playing in. I've autocrossed my current S2000, but never tracked it; although I did spend a good amount of time on track in the S2000 I owned years ago (also an AP2- 2007 Silverstone). Granted, cars have gotten faster since then, but at the time, while it wasn't what I would call a "fast" car, I didn't think it was painfully slow, even if none of the cars mentioned in this thread can match the acceleration of more modern rivals. 

As far as overall performance goes, the 987.2 S is certainly a better bang for your buck these days. Ironically, even though they were roughly double the price when new, a 987.2 S seems to sell for around the same prices on BAT as low mileage AP2 S2000's these days- there's no doubt, for the money, you're getting a higher performing car with the 987.2 S. You're also getting a car that's less likely to wear you out on longer trips- the S2000 is more hyperactive in my opinion (at least when I compared it to the 987.1 S' that I've driven). 

Although the S2000 has the same party trick as the Miata (of all generations): when you're going 50mph with the top down, it feels like you're going 85+mph. With the top down, revving the motor out, the S2000 feels faster than it actually is. There's a reason why they're still selling today for more than they sold for when they were brand new- I've driven just about everything under the sun and there's just nothing else like it. 

Going back to the OP's issue at hand, the more I think about it, I love my S2000, but I'm not sure I would want to daily it- depending on the length and terrain involved in your commute, it can wear you out. Carving corners in the canyons it feels like a hyperactive mongoose chasing a cobra, but in order to really enjoy the car, you need to keep it on boil... on longer freeway trips, it's hyper nature can leave something to be desired. Depending on the OP's commute, since it would be a daily, I might retract my previous recommendation. Both a 987 and ND are softer edged in stock form, assuming the OP fits in the ND comfortably (I certainly don't). 

For track day fun, any of the cars mentioned in this thread are going to put a smile on your face! Running open lapping days, it doesn't matter how fast you're going, as long as you're having fun, doing what you want to be doing. If you actually want to go racing (time attack, wheel-to-wheel, etc), it's all irrelevant- just buy the car that slots best into whatever class you're looking to run; though the OP has indicated no such intentions. 

OP- I'm assuming you're only interested in 2-seat RWD cars? If not, the folks at Everyday Driver did an interesting comparison a while back: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNMBFGCWR1E