There's a Lemons race at Sebring this year. I'm trying to talk my disorganized Champcar team into entering. But they seem to be under the impression we'll be penalized greatly if we don't strap a dinosaur to the roof or something ridiculous. How silly is Lemons? Can we run a car without a theme?
For sure, we did for many years with no sweat.
In reply to ross2004 :
No penalty laps or smashing of your car? And just to be clear, you ran with no theme?
It's my understanding that there are basically two races: the serious racers and the jokers. I'm not saying the jokers are second-class or anything, they're just in it for different reasons. Like putting a BMW motor in a Corvette just to piss people off, or building a car for a specific race just so they can make a pun. They're amazingly creative and high effort at the top end.
You don't hear about the serious racers, that's all.
Show up with a racing suit, racing gloves helmet and hans. If your theme is questioned, state that your cosplay is actually being a racing driver.
Things go wrong in budget racing, it can get frustrating and it can get more expensive than wanted and desired. The themes are about a distraction so that you enjoy yourself and have fun while dealing with chaos that keeps you off track for 4 hours while the course is hot. It's difficult to be frustrated and maintain anger at circumstances that aren't directed towards anyone, when there's someone wearing an inflatable unicorn inner tube around their waist in the next paddock area.
I've heard that the themes will allow the officials to overlook certain things. I think I read that in the VW Fox series on here, actually.
They don't crush your car, you don't need to worry about that.
If you're a new car/team they may give you a lap or two, depends on the car and what all you have done. And yes, we ran a 3rd gen Camaro with no theme. Lemons is fun, much more laid back than Champcar, but still plenty racey at the top of the board.
Remeber for the sebring race chrysler sebrings race for free iirc
A theme helps with favorable classing or avoiding penalty laps if your car is cheaty or boring (E30, E36, Miata). If your car is interesting to the judges, seems like a genuine hooptie, or has interesting junkyard engineering or interesting fabricobbled parts, the car is your talking point during BS and you don't need a theme.
Some of us aren't themed jokers having a cosplay weekend, but we do like racing for Class C and Index of Effluency rather than racing for overall. We're there to build something interesting that can actually perform and last, while having a good time and not being all serious-business-racecar-driver.
Honestly, the top finishers on laps often get on my nerves at Lemons races. The super serious Real Racer™ attitude, in my opinion, clashes with the true spirit of the event, and they tend to drive every lap like it's a sprint race and treat the slower cars like they don't belong and don't matter. You can only get divebombed by the same E36 in the same corner so many times before you start to get grumpy.
There are always exceptions to this of course, like team Petrosexual Racing with their Cadillac-swapped Miata, who are super chill and can win overall with a funky interesting car.
That Miata is so ridiculous. But in a good way.
I suspect - being a bystander and not a team member - that if you used a theme to allow for cheaty parts, you would get penalized. If you do the theme for entertainment and you're not going to benefit from it, well, no.
Nothing wrong with being a Real Racer™ at a budget race. You're defining the event by what you get it out of it, but for others it's a way to do really interesting engineering and build a fast car without a massive budget. Just think of them as LMP1 to your GT3 AM :) The non-serious racers are actually the reason I never took budget racing as legitimate until I talked to a few teams and started to understand that you don't HAVE to be a goofball, that it's okay to actually, you know, race.
Keith Tanner said:It's my understanding that there are basically two races: the serious racers and the jokers. I'm not saying the jokers are second-class or anything, they're just in it for different reasons. Like putting a BMW motor in a Corvette just to piss people off, or building a car for a specific race just so they can make a pun. They're amazingly creative and high effort at the top end.
You don't hear about the serious racers, that's all.
I agree with this. I also see a lot of shenanigans with the serious racers though, because they need to distract from the fact that they spent 5x the max budget and built a real competitive race car. Nobody gets mad about your B16 CRX if you do something stupid like weld an airplane wing to the roof.
Keith Tanner said:but for others it's a way to do really interesting engineering and build a fast car without a massive budget.
I think we're essentially saying the same thing. I 100% respect the teams who can build something crazy, do an interesting swap, or put together a really nice car using a lot of fabrication and sweat equity, and still finish Top 3.
My disdain is for the Real Racers that bring a cheaty E30/E36 or pay their Spec Miata race shop to build and bring a car for them and then pay to have it worked on all weekend.
We've been in the running to win Class C at our last three races, and once you know who is top three in your class it certainly feels like you're actually racing.
After several years of Lemons racing with somewhat weak themes I can tell you that is is OK. Your $5000 Champ car will get some penalty laps unless you have some decent documentation, or you can prove how unreliable it is.
If you just want a bunch of seat time for not a lot of $$$ go do it. I've been everywhere from 2nd place in C, Fourth in B to DNF, always had fun and found someone to race.
Part of the fun and challenge is the lap time difference from fast to speed bump, fast cars are running high 1:40s, slowest 2:30s, with 100 cars starting a race there is a lot going on.
In reply to akylekoz :
When I drove Lemons, I thought the on track experience was more akin to Friday night traffic on the highway than a racetrack. Still very fun but you have to be so mindful of the cars around you. I'd still love to go race in Lemons again.
just for reference, we're in a pretty standard miata. Nothing special. Junkyard engine and coilovers. I'm going to push the boys to do it. I've wanted to do a lemons race for a while but they haven't done much down in the FL area in a long time.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I like how Champ Car rates the potential of cars according to expected performance and reliability.
As I see it that allows older cars much more room to upgrade and if inclined you can check and refresh everything to be reliable even if upgrading gains points. Thus an older car can be made reliable and has room to improve performance.
akylekoz said:After several years of Lemons racing with somewhat weak themes I can tell you that is is OK. Your $5000 Champ car will get some penalty laps unless you have some decent documentation, or you can prove how unreliable it is.
If you just want a bunch of seat time for not a lot of $$$ go do it. I've been everywhere from 2nd place in C, Fourth in B to DNF, always had fun and found someone to race.
Part of the fun and challenge is the lap time difference from fast to speed bump, fast cars are running high 1:40s, slowest 2:30s, with 100 cars starting a race there is a lot going on.
$5000 is about the cost to put any car on the track with some reason to expect a degree of reliability.
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
You will probably catch some penalty laps and some lip about a having a cheaty car. It will all be in good fun though unless you have a attitude. If you are obviously there to have a good time no one will really care what what you drive.
In reply to frenchyd :
Not really. The civic we run was bought and built for under $2500 12 years ago. It has finished every event entered and placed as high as 9th overall.
newrider3 said:A theme helps with favorable classing or avoiding penalty laps if your car is cheaty or boring (E30, E36, Miata). If your car is interesting to the judges, seems like a genuine hooptie, or has interesting junkyard engineering or interesting fabricobbled parts, the car is your talking point during BS and you don't need a theme.
Some of us aren't themed jokers having a cosplay weekend, but we do like racing for Class C and Index of Effluency rather than racing for overall. We're there to build something interesting that can actually perform and last, while having a good time and not being all serious-business-racecar-driver.
Honestly, the top finishers on laps often get on my nerves at Lemons races. The super serious Real Racer™ attitude, in my opinion, clashes with the true spirit of the event, and they tend to drive every lap like it's a sprint race and treat the slower cars like they don't belong and don't matter. You can only get divebombed by the same E36 in the same corner so many times before you start to get grumpy.
There are always exceptions to this of course, like team Petrosexual Racing with their Cadillac-swapped Miata, who are super chill and can win overall with a funky interesting car.
While humor is all good and well, a little goes a very long way and can easily turn to farce.
I realize that may come off as sanctimonious. But most racers understand exactly what is meant. The whole premise of racing cheap old cars is good humor in itself. When you add to that endurance racing. You've already reached near insanity levels. Ludicrous appendages push racing into the farce levels.
In reply to Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) :
I think he meant to say $5k is the bare minium to get a Jaguar race car barely reliable to attempt racing.
My team (3 Pedal Mafia) has basically done it all in Lemons. [humblebrag] I'm more than 50 races deep. We have 4 IOEs, wins in every class including overall, and themes from epic to pretty lame. We've won every trophy but one. We even won the national championship (which is based on finishing well and entries)[/humblebrag]. We have been judges several times and have members who regularly work the races. It has all been a wonderful experience and I've met so many great people who continue to be great friends.
They stopped crushing cars about 10 years ago. If you show up with a really serious high $ race car that passes the pretty strict tech inspection (more strict than other series I've tried) you can still race, you just won't be able to win anything.
These days in Lemons, themes are more to show that you get the idea that there are no F1 scouts in the stands and that nobody there makes a living doing this, so there's no need to be SUPER SERIOUS!!!11!!11!!! about it all. Back in the day we went all out on our themes (and crazy cars) because it was fun. Once we had won everything but the class B and A wins, we got serious and got those two, after some really serious effort. Make no mistake, the pointy end of the field at a Lemons race is some serious E36 M3. It is full of excellent drivers who do this because it is fun and gets a ton of seat time (I've had 8 hours of seat time in 2 days, for example) and is full of great people. The cars at that level are usually very well developed over several years and can be seriously fast based on residual values and the long term development. There are very few $500 cars these days, but it is now more about the attitude that these are not IMSA cars, but there is no shortage of creative and interesting engineering.
If you don't care about winning, just make sure your car will pass tech (rules are online and pretty easy to follow) and pay your entry and show up. No matter what you'll be able to race. If you want to win, at least give the staff some idea that you are not a huge douchebag who is going to cause problems, then follow that up on track.
You will find all kinds in Lemons and you will always find someone to race no matter what you have. Some people really push for the overall, some people use this as an outlet for their creativity, and some people just want to spend some time with friend and driving on track. Everyone can find a home as long as you don't think you are the next Lewis Hamilton (even when you have the red mist).
Now, just for fun, here are some of our team's cars and themes:
"The Boat", which sort of started the "hat car" thing, and eventually went on to win class C and finish as high as 20th overall (of 90 that race):
Some IOE cars, the Rolls Royce (bought for $1k, seriously) and the Citroen S&M (that was $900):
Rolls, complete with monocle
S&M Complete with ball gag and spiked collar
Sometimes we get serious. This Civic won overall at Thompson this year by 1.3 seconds with 4 cars on the lead lap. It is usually in the top 5 fastest laps of the weekend (and has had the fastest lap overall too). It also has about 25k race miles on it since we got it. The boom on the roof has been there for 6 years and 5 different themes, this one is Godzilla.
This is our most successful car because it just keeps running, even though it is notably off the pace of the fastest cars, it usually places in the top 10 and has been as high as 3rd, it is an 86 Cressida:
Here's Black Betty, who just placed 3rd overall at NHMS in October (of 90). Buick 3800 powered, it is usually in the top 5 fastest laps of the weekend:
This is what makes it all worth it. The people are amazing. This was our winning driver roster, I'm on the roof, my wife is the hot blonde, Mental (from this forum) is in the center, and Jeff is on the right.
Unless if something changed, Judge Phil announced a Dodge Dynasty challenge where as long as the Engine,Trans, and production chassis was used, where's no budget limit on said car. Just no NASCAR chassis with a Dynasty body though.
One more thing: with the COVID, themes have taken a back burner. Only one person can go through tech with the car so costumes aren't really a thing anymore until we are back to normal.
(I have way less Lemons experience than Sonic(but I've beaten them!) at 7 years and 18ish races)
The number of chump cars I've seen at CMP, Barber and Road Atlanta is pretty high and when I look at the standings they usually don't get penalty laps. There are a few laps here and there for some properly cheaty cars(manual swapped Mark VIII comes to mind).
We only do a theme for the CMP parade(RIP). The car is painted up themed but that's it. You're in a Miata. I don't remember the last time a Miata won a Lemons race. You should be fine on penalty laps.
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