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wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe PowerDork
4/17/21 3:43 p.m.

OK so onto the good and the bad. 

The good a local speed shop has a full on kit for aluminum vortec heads and a intake that they can get me that fits. Bad news is its at least a month out. ~1400$ all in with the manifold and all new gaskets and everything I need. I gave them what I want to do with the car and the gearing and the transmission and they do the leg work to find me exactly what I should buy. Well worth the 50$ they charge for the service and paying a little above summit for the parts. 

So onto the bad or more likely the pissed off. When I bought the car it had been "tuned" and gone over. The shop that did it gave the motor a clean bill of health. This is the shop that had it setup for 25% more fuel then needed on the main jets so I knew something was off. So I did less then my normal due diligence because well at least someone looked at it. So while I was in I checked the lash and they are all so tight/loose that you would want to cry. 

So I yanked all of the rollers out and all of the push rods and sure enough about 8 or 9 of them have visible bends. There are at least four different brands of push rods in this thing as well. So a friend is dropping off a set of 16 crane push rods from his overflow set for 20$ and I already put the rocker stud in for 2.99$ in parts. Super easy with some dry ice and 100% ETOH to freeze it down and some mild 200f heat in the head from a torch. It was 0.003 oversized so it was a bear to put in but it had a self centering ferrule at the end and I just whacked it with a brass hammer and it went straight in to the factory depth. Let it come to temp and its in there. 

So now all I have to do it put it back together and see if it runs right. If I think anything else is out of wack I am pulling the motor next weekend and tearing it all the way down. Have not worked on a lot of small block Chevy's before but so far its not so bad. If it could run decently being that out of spec I wonder what it will do when its actually put back together right.

 

Also I check TDC and thats off by about 2 degrees on the markings so that explains why when it ran much better when I put another 4 of advance in it. 

Chevy stuff is cheap and fun so not kicking myself to hard. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UberDork
4/17/21 4:18 p.m.
wearymicrobe said:

So now all I have to do it put it back together and see if it runs right. If I think anything else is out of wack I am pulling the motor next weekend and tearing it all the way down. 

I don't blame you on that, considering what nonsense you've found with it.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/17/21 8:50 p.m.
03Panther said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Smaller cylinders need smaller CC heads for the same compression, no matter if it's smaller because of bore or stroke.

Smaller bore I get. Or if the CR is different. But I can't wrap my mind around the slightly smaller stroke. I would imagine the CR was the same, since different pistons.  Prolly just me being thick this morning. blush

CC and piston top dimensions would determine CR, wouldn't it?

No, not quite.  Even if the pistons ended up at the same spot with the same crown, it only started with fewer cubes in each cylinder.  The CR is the ratio of total volume at BDC compared to the total volume at TDC.  With less displacement, the same total volume at TDC means less compression because it had less to start with.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/17/21 8:57 p.m.
03Panther said:
RossD said:

350 cid / 8 cylinders = 43.75 ci per cylinder

327/8= 40.875 ci per cylinder.

Smash both into 72 cc combustion chamber and the 350 gets a higher compression. More air into a smaller space.

I completely understand that, and streetwiseguy. But that doesn't take in to account what pistons either has; that will affect the CR.

"Compression ratio is a comparison of cylinder volume plus chamber volume at bottom dead center to the same at top dead center."

Correct. and depending on the shape of the piston top, and the volume of the combustion chamber, that number can be different from one engine to another with the same size bore/stroke. A smaller 327 could have a higher CR with 72 cc heads and domed pistons, than a larger 350 with 72cc heads and dished pistons... at least if I'm thinkin' correctly. smiley

Yes, it can.  

I think what we're discussing is the same thing described two different ways.

Chevy used a dizzying array of piston dome/dish/flat configurations, but three main head chamber sizes; 58cc, 63-64cc, and 74-76cc.  There were other non-common sizes, but Chevy realized it was easier to re-engineer pistons than it was to re-engineer heads

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/17/21 9:32 p.m.
wearymicrobe said:

OK so onto the good and the bad. 

The good a local speed shop has a full on kit for aluminum vortec heads and a intake that they can get me that fits. Bad news is its at least a month out. ~1400$ all in with the manifold and all new gaskets and everything I need. I gave them what I want to do with the car and the gearing and the transmission and they do the leg work to find me exactly what I should buy. Well worth the 50$ they charge for the service and paying a little above summit for the parts. 

So onto the bad or more likely the pissed off. When I bought the car it had been "tuned" and gone over. The shop that did it gave the motor a clean bill of health. This is the shop that had it setup for 25% more fuel then needed on the main jets so I knew something was off. So I did less then my normal due diligence because well at least someone looked at it. So while I was in I checked the lash and they are all so tight/loose that you would want to cry. 

So I yanked all of the rollers out and all of the push rods and sure enough about 8 or 9 of them have visible bends. There are at least four different brands of push rods in this thing as well. So a friend is dropping off a set of 16 crane push rods from his overflow set for 20$ and I already put the rocker stud in for 2.99$ in parts. Super easy with some dry ice and 100% ETOH to freeze it down and some mild 200f heat in the head from a torch. It was 0.003 oversized so it was a bear to put in but it had a self centering ferrule at the end and I just whacked it with a brass hammer and it went straight in to the factory depth. Let it come to temp and its in there. 

So now all I have to do it put it back together and see if it runs right. If I think anything else is out of wack I am pulling the motor next weekend and tearing it all the way down. Have not worked on a lot of small block Chevy's before but so far its not so bad. If it could run decently being that out of spec I wonder what it will do when its actually put back together right.

 

Also I check TDC and thats off by about 2 degrees on the markings so that explains why when it ran much better when I put another 4 of advance in it. 

Chevy stuff is cheap and fun so not kicking myself to hard. 

My two cents:

Unless you absolutely MUST shave precious pounds off your engine, skip the aluminum.  Aluminum is not a performance choice, it's a weight choice.  All things being equal, an aluminum head makes less power than an iron head.  People used to say that you can run more compression with aluminum, but in actuality, you have to run more compression to maintain your power levels when switching to aluminum.  The increased heat conductivity of aluminum saps away more heat from the combustion chamber than iron.

The real money in my opinion is to just get iron Vortec heads.  You can find a used set for $250-350, but you'll want to invest the $45 in magnafluxing before you plop down your money.  Vortec heads (I'm talking about ONLY the 906 and 062 castings from 350s 96-98) are not nearly as crack-prone as the intarwebs would have you believe, but they are more prone to cracking than something from the 70s.  Be aware... factory Vortecs will not tolerate more than about .470" valve lift.  This is an easy fix if you get a spring/retainer kit that allows for up to .550".  Any more lift and you'll need to measure and possibly cut down the guides. 

If you are willing to plop down $1400 on aluminum heads, you are money (and power) ahead to buy the Summit Vortec iron castings.  They are about $350 each, and they are basically copies of GM's casting, but they have three things going for them: A) they're new so they have a lot longer time before they would crack, B) they are made from a different alloy that is far less likely to crack, and C) IIRC, they are already equipped with guides or retainers that allow the extra lift.

For a Vortec intake, call up any boat junkyard in the country and find a carb intake from a Vortec I/O.  All three of the big ones (Volvo, OMC, and Mercruiser) used Vortec heads with carb intakes, and they licensed existing GM intakes for their builds.  Volvo, for instance, re-cast their own version of the Vortec ZZ4 intake (a wonderful piece that costs $350 because "specialty").  The only difference is that it is cast with a bronze liner in the water crossover.  I forget the casting number but I think it ends with 304 or 340... something like that.  That's a long way of saying... Vortec carb intakes are expensive because they're a specialty item in the car world.  In the boat world, they are plentiful and usually cheap.  I got one once that was $50 and it came with the entire engine, carb to pan with accessories.  It was a warranty replacement engine (blown head gasket) that fell off the radar and the shop was going to scrap it.  The intake that was on it had the GM casting number, but the mold had been modified to include the Volvo insignia beside it.  I used to have a stockpile of those things but I have since either used them all in builds, or sold them for a cute little profit.  That was 15 years ago, but I could buy them for $20-50 plus about $15 shipping.  Be aware that Vortec heads have slightly higher intake ports which means you need to be aware of hood clearance if its tight right now.

Your current exhaust should be fine, but Vortec heads have ever-so-slightly higher exhaust ports as well.  If your downpipe or header collectors are close to the floorpan, be prepared to adjust them.

With this recipe you can get all the advantages of Vortec heads with none of the drawbacks for under $1000 all in easily.  You'll need either self-centering rockers or (of you want to keep the Sharps) use hardened pushrods and guide plates.

If you instead decide to fix what you have, just buy one screw-in stud and tap the hole where the pushed-out stud was.  It won't last, but it will work in a pinch.  In general, I very much dislike pinned press-in studs.  First, you're creating a fracture point where you drilled for the roll pin, second, you are inviting bigger damage by preventing small damage.  If a stud starts to work itself out, it's progressive and you can fix it without anything getting broken.  Once you pin it, you're forcing the fact that when something goes, it goes because it broke (as you discovered).  IMO, you either have press-in studs (which are remarkably reliable) or screw in.  I don't pin studs anymore.  Too many failures, and once drilled for pins, they can't really be re-engineered for re-use with any other stud configuration.  It's the vasectomy of the Chevy SBC world.  It can be reversed, but it costs so much that it's cheaper to have a surrogate dad (buy new heads)

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe PowerDork
4/18/21 1:14 a.m.

Curtis seriously thank you I think you put into words what I need to do. I was more interested in getting a full set that I could just bolt on all things made to work together. I really need to read what you posted a few times to let it sink in. Aluminum was just for weight and all of the packages they had were aluminum, they were mentioning that steel was out of stock for most of the kits they sold with no delivery date. 

 

So why am I trying to fix this, well its cheap for me to do and it teaches me whats going on in a SBC. Its not a flathead so I am learning a bunch and for the cost of new push rods and a stud it seemed worth the effort. I think once I pull the heads and do the swap I am actually going to drill and tap the old heads just to go through the process. Not like anybody is going to want to buy old heads that have pinned studs anyway. 

So drained the oil and flushed it as it got a bit of coolant in it from pulling the original bad stud. Put all the rockers back in and tried to get it fired up and well it runs but it sounds really rough almost like the valves are open a little bit all the time. Its has hydraulic lifters so I did the whole 3/4 of a turn after getting the push rods not to turn. So I got frustrated and took them all off again and will try again tomorrow. I used a technique where you just rotate the engine 90 degrees over and over and keep tightening up the polynuts as you go. After looking at the crane cam install docs which are pretty decent and they make a 284 H12 cam like I have they actually suggest a full 360 tightening of the poly screw once you find the zero play. I see people on the HAMB suggest just a 1/4 turn if the lifters have oil and have been run in. We are talking the diffference between 0.035 and 0.045 or so if my math is right on the pitch and I really doubt that will cause an issue. 

Anyway going to do it by bringing it to TDC and then just chasing the intake/exhaust from one cylinder to the next. Then let it warm up and blow out all the fuel I am sure leaked from the carb down into the intake and see how it does. I might have to pull the intake just to make sure that the lifters are not busted as well. Maybe that is what caused the break, bit when I was turning the motor over everything seemed to move correctly.  

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UberDork
4/18/21 1:33 a.m.

In reply to wearymicrobe :

I might suggest these to help you figure out if its running properly.  Helps prevent a huge mess, and if you are just running at idle it'll be fine

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MUE220P

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
4/18/21 8:55 a.m.

I don't trust the "rotate the pushrods", because how do you explain how hard to rotate?.

My technique is to loosen all of them until the top of the nut is about level with the top of the stud.  Not all will feel loose at that point, because some of the valves will be on the lobes.  Now, wiggle each one, and snug the nuts until the slack/ability to rattle it has just gone,  rotate the crank some, adjust all 16 til the slack is just taken up, rotate the crank...and so on.  Once you go through all 16, turn them all down whatever your internet tells you and proceed.  Realistically, anywhere between a quarter turn and a turn and a half will work.

It just struck me...As long as they are hydraulic lifters.  Would an engine with pinned studs have an old solid lifter cam?

03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
4/18/21 9:15 a.m.
 

CC and piston top dimensions would determine CR, wouldn't it?

No, not quite.  Even if the pistons ended up at the same spot with the same crown, it only started with fewer cubes in each cylinder.  The CR is the ratio of total volume at BDC compared to the total volume at TDC.  With less displacement, the same total volume at TDC means less compression because it had less to start with.

If you used the exact same piston in both engines, that would be correct. The smaller cu in engine would have !see cr.  But I don't know why anyone would use the exact same engine. If you use a piston designed to achieve 8.5 static cr with 72 cc heads in s 327, that engine will have the same cr (static) as a 350 with a piston designed to achieve 8.5 cr with 72 cc heads. 

The ensuing side track explanations have not been incorrect; just missing my point that one cannot arbitrarily state that a 327 automatically needs smaller cc heads. There is more info needed than was given.  The folks that explain to me why a 327 has a different bore and stroke as a 350, are not actually saying the same thing as me. 

03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
4/18/21 9:27 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Unless you absolutely MUST shave precious pounds off your engine, skip the aluminum.  Aluminum is not a performance choice, it's a weight choice.  All things being equal, an aluminum head makes less power than an iron head.  People used to say that you can run more compression with aluminum, but in actuality, you have to run more compression to maintain your power levels when switching to aluminum.  The increased heat conductivity of aluminum saps away more heat from the combustion chamber than iron.

I've been laughed at many times, for saying just that. So many folks out there that have seen racers use al heads, so they must make more power. Then repeat till it becomes "common knowledge" and ignore physics. 

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe PowerDork
4/18/21 5:49 p.m.

Ok so I am convinced the PO was a hack now and just threw money at this car just like my Baja bug.

 

Car now runs on all 8 cylinders, not sure it did that before and I am almost certain it came to me with the broken rocker stud. Could not sleep because this was bugging me so much so I did research for hours last night and found the cam I have the cam card and figured out what all the numbers mean. I then set the rollers up with the manual that I got a scan of online and after a big of on and off with setting the preload (1/8th turn for me) the thing runs like a sewing machine. It has never ever been this smooth, it makes power everywhere, I can do burnouts on command. No off idle turning issues to chase. Literally just reset the idle, the idle screws and went for a drive and its a different car. 

 

So I counted a out a few of the preload turns on a few of the arms that I had on the car in the beginning and I think three or four were at 2 full turns. I hade a few at basically zero preload and the rest in between. Remember how I could not get in turn with this car and figure out how to drive it, all I was doing was manhalding it around the little power it has. Now its NICE. Definitely need to finish the brake proportining valve installed it was fine before but it is clear now that it is locking up the read drums and not the fronts all the way. 

QuasiMofo (John Brown)
QuasiMofo (John Brown) MegaDork
4/18/21 6:01 p.m.

Vortecs on a 327 in a Corvette would cause a manifold choice issue I believe. Aren't most of the Vortec intakes air gap hi/mid rise style

03Panther
03Panther SuperDork
4/18/21 9:48 p.m.

In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :

I believe (although never worked on anything with them new fangled vortec heads,) that there are a blue million styles of intakes for 'em, just like most SBC stuff. If I remember correctly, some are even drilled for either? Not sure.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/19/21 9:01 p.m.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) said:

Vortecs on a 327 in a Corvette would cause a manifold choice issue I believe. Aren't most of the Vortec intakes air gap hi/mid rise style

They are taller by a bit.  The intake and exhaust ports are a tiny bit higher than old school SBC heads, so it's not that the intake designs are hi-rise by default, its just that everything is lifted a bit to match the ports.

When I swapped to a Vortec 350 in my boat from an old 305, the intake was just tall enough that it wouldn't fit under the cover.  I used it as an excuse to add a Funny Car hood scoop:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/19/21 9:31 p.m.

In reply to wearymicrobe :

With lifter pre-load, there are a few things to be aware of:  The range of preload is pretty small.  A lot of people assume that it's a big piston with a lot of oil, but it's quite a small distance you have to get preload.  The preload is there to not only take up lash in the valvetrain, but also to account for thermal expansion.  Ever notice how setting solid lifters have different lash settings for hot and cold? That's for thermal expansion. If you don't get your preload just right, you might get valves held open or clicking noise/lash depending on the temperature of the engine.  Setting it correctly lets you get the hydraulic "suspension" at all temps.

It's also important to note that where you set the preload is not important to the valves.  If it is preloaded (off the retaining ring) and not bottomed out, and also not completely at one extreme or another, preload is just fine.  As long as you don't have too little (which can make it clatter when cold) or too much (hold open a valve when hot), preload is preload.  You're suspending the pushrod on oil pressure, so it doesn't really matter if you choose 1/4 turn, 3/4 turn, or anything in between.

Old-school performance folks will argue all day about where to set preload.  It's all BS.  The answer is "yes, you need some preload."

SBC lifters can typically be set anywhere from .020" to .060" preload... hence why you have recommendations for anywhere from 1/4 turn to 3/4 turn.  The linear distance is set by the thread pitch which gives you about .020" per quarter-turn of the nut.  The real secret is not how much preload you give it, it's how much preload you THINK you are giving it.  The two biggest issues I see are A) properly finding zero lash first, and B) not being on the base circle.  

For problem A, most people do the pushrod spin test which is just not a good way to do it.  Depending on the lube you have on the pushrod tips and the amount of oil (if any) in the lifter, you might blow right past zero lash to full lifter compression before you start your 1/2 turn preload, which means you've just opened the valve by about .065".  I use the masturbation method.  Grab the pushrod with two fingers and, um, slide the shaft up and down while tightening the nut until you have no more motion.

For problem B, that usually happens when people google the procedure for how to rotate the crank for setting preload.  It works great for stock cams, but with aftermaket stuff you can easily get into partial lift on the lobe while trying to find zero lash.  Your 90 degree method works every time.  When you are at TDC in a compression/ignition stroke, there is no way the lobes (intake OR exhaust) on that cylinder are anywhere but base circle  I like to start at TDC and set I and E on #1.  Then rotate 90 and do I and E on 8, then continue every 90 degrees for 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2.  It's more crank rotation work, but you know it's right.

APEowner
APEowner Dork
4/20/21 7:28 a.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to wearymicrobe :

With lifter pre-load, there are a few things to be aware of:  The range of preload is pretty small.  A lot of people assume that it's a big piston with a lot of oil, but it's quite a small distance you have to get preload.  The preload is there to not only take up lash in the valvetrain, but also to account for thermal expansion.  Ever notice how setting solid lifters have different lash settings for hot and cold? That's for thermal expansion. If you don't get your preload just right, you might get valves held open or clicking noise/lash depending on the temperature of the engine.  Setting it correctly lets you get the hydraulic "suspension" at all temps.

It's also important to note that where you set the preload is not important to the valves.  If it is preloaded (off the retaining ring) and not bottomed out, and also not completely at one extreme or another, preload is just fine.  As long as you don't have too little (which can make it clatter when cold) or too much (hold open a valve when hot), preload is preload.  You're suspending the pushrod on oil pressure, so it doesn't really matter if you choose 1/4 turn, 3/4 turn, or anything in between.

Old-school performance folks will argue all day about where to set preload.  It's all BS.  The answer is "yes, you need some preload."

SBC lifters can typically be set anywhere from .020" to .060" preload... hence why you have recommendations for anywhere from 1/4 turn to 3/4 turn.  The linear distance is set by the thread pitch which gives you about .020" per quarter-turn of the nut.  The real secret is not how much preload you give it, it's how much preload you THINK you are giving it.  The two biggest issues I see are A) properly finding zero lash first, and B) not being on the base circle.  

For problem A, most people do the pushrod spin test which is just not a good way to do it.  Depending on the lube you have on the pushrod tips and the amount of oil (if any) in the lifter, you might blow right past zero lash to full lifter compression before you start your 1/2 turn preload, which means you've just opened the valve by about .065".  I use the masturbation method.  Grab the pushrod with two fingers and, um, slide the shaft up and down while tightening the nut until you have no more motion.

For problem B, that usually happens when people google the procedure for how to rotate the crank for setting preload.  It works great for stock cams, but with aftermaket stuff you can easily get into partial lift on the lobe while trying to find zero lash.  Your 90 degree method works every time.  When you are at TDC in a compression/ignition stroke, there is no way the lobes (intake OR exhaust) on that cylinder are anywhere but base circle  I like to start at TDC and set I and E on #1.  Then rotate 90 and do I and E on 8, then continue every 90 degrees for 4, 3, 6, 5, 7, 2.  It's more crank rotation work, but you know it's right.

Nice write up Curtis.  Thanks for saving me from writing it.  The only thing I'll add is that when I can I use the number of turns from the lifter manufacturer but otherwise I use 1/2 turn because you have to use something.

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