The G37's and 5 series handle well... for a big car. Yes, they handle well, but you can feel the weight. They certainly have the suspension and power to make up for it, but it is there. Don't expect it to feel like a Miata and you'll be estatic.
The G37's and 5 series handle well... for a big car. Yes, they handle well, but you can feel the weight. They certainly have the suspension and power to make up for it, but it is there. Don't expect it to feel like a Miata and you'll be estatic.
Ya, I think BMW, Mercedes, Lexus or Infiniti are the best answers here. You didn't give us much to go on so the premium cars are likely your better bet for all around performance and ride.
Chris_V wrote: My own answer to this was, along with the E39 540i, is the E38 740i M Sport, and I put my money where my mouth is and bought (another ) one for $7500:Drives like a much smaller car and gets smaller around you the faster you go.
UUGGGGHHHH GIVE ME THOSE SEATS
e38 sport seats are the best thing ever, and swap directly into an e39, same plug and all, even the memory functions work.
but they're super rare, and finding them in my car's interior color (grey) is even harder, black seats are easy to find
My X type so far has ticked all those box's. Just look at the transfer case and make sure it is not leaking out of the rear seal. If it is run away but otherwise a poor mans 5/7 series BMW and you get AWD. Easy to work on and just begs you to push it through off ramps.
E60 535i sport RWD would be my pick. Buttery smooth, yet handles sweetly.
No one has mentioned the current crop of hot hatches because they are really too small for 4 people. There is not a lot of room in the back for longer drives.
The G37 is not a miata or BRZ but it is a very capable 4 seat GT car that can run the quarter in 13.5 all day long and still fit the whole crew and their luggage in comfort and has some style to it. Think more mustang than Miata and you are on the right track.
joekitch wrote:Harvey wrote: E39 540i, unreliable as hell, fast, fun. Get the six cylinder version if you don't want it to blow up in various ways.the 540i's reputation is sort of overblown, it just has four big weakpoints that can be addressed -the cooling system, which if you use a lower pressure 1.2bar cap and upgrade to a two speed electric cooling fan + aluminum expansion tank + metal impeller water pump, will last a good long while -the leaky seals, which previously were made with crappy buna rubber, now the OEM seals are made of viton which is indestructible and will probably outlast the car -the vanos system, which you can rebuild yourself over a weekend, and is actually nice since it makes the low end of the engine even more grunty than it would otherwise. -the timing chain guides, which give you plenty of warning before they go out (grinding sound on cold start) and is also a weekend job but you'll need to rent tools to lock the camshafts. you can also pay a shop to do all this, it'd be like 4 grand of parts and labor but that'll make the engine unkillable for another 150k miles at least
You forgot the cats that burn out regularly and have no good replacement and which cost $1500 or so per side. You can just keep welding in cheap aftermarket cats, but they keep burning out.
Most of them go for $5k to $10k depending on condition and aren't really worth owning. There are also a litany of minor issues that crop up over time that are more irritating than costly, like the window regulator failures, the seats rattling, the final stage unit, door actuators, trunk actuator, bad pixels in the displays, those terrible cup holders, etc.
I'd rather get the M5 and deal with the possibility of carbon build up.
I drove my 97 540 from 40k miles to 90k and all that stuff happened in that time. Cooling system, cats, seals multiple times, every little minor issue mentioned above. I wouldn't own one as a car I put a lot of mileage on.
Harvey wrote:joekitch wrote:You forgot the cats that burn out regularly and have no good replacement and which cost $1500 or so per side. You can just keep welding in cheap aftermarket cats, but they keep burning out. Most of them go for $5k to $10k depending on condition and aren't really worth owning. There are also a litany of minor issues that crop up over time that are more irritating than costly, like the window regulator failures, the seats rattling, the final stage unit, door actuators, trunk actuator, bad pixels in the displays, those terrible cup holders, etc. I'd rather get the M5 and deal with the possibility of carbon build up. I drove my 97 540 from 40k miles to 90k and all that stuff happened in that time. Cooling system, cats, seals multiple times, every little minor issue mentioned above. I wouldn't own one as a car I put a lot of mileage on.Harvey wrote: E39 540i, unreliable as hell, fast, fun. Get the six cylinder version if you don't want it to blow up in various ways.the 540i's reputation is sort of overblown, it just has four big weakpoints that can be addressed -the cooling system, which if you use a lower pressure 1.2bar cap and upgrade to a two speed electric cooling fan + aluminum expansion tank + metal impeller water pump, will last a good long while -the leaky seals, which previously were made with crappy buna rubber, now the OEM seals are made of viton which is indestructible and will probably outlast the car -the vanos system, which you can rebuild yourself over a weekend, and is actually nice since it makes the low end of the engine even more grunty than it would otherwise. -the timing chain guides, which give you plenty of warning before they go out (grinding sound on cold start) and is also a weekend job but you'll need to rent tools to lock the camshafts. you can also pay a shop to do all this, it'd be like 4 grand of parts and labor but that'll make the engine unkillable for another 150k miles at least
This all sounds familiar... are you "Harv" from the NASIOC OT? If so, I remember reading all about the problems you had with your 540i. It really turned me off of wanting one.
And if not... well... you have a twin. 
SilverFleet wrote:Harvey wrote:This all sounds familiar... are you "Harv" from the NASIOC OT? If so, I remember reading all about the problems you had with your 540i. It really turned me off of wanting one. And if not... well... you have a twin.joekitch wrote:You forgot the cats that burn out regularly and have no good replacement and which cost $1500 or so per side. You can just keep welding in cheap aftermarket cats, but they keep burning out. Most of them go for $5k to $10k depending on condition and aren't really worth owning. There are also a litany of minor issues that crop up over time that are more irritating than costly, like the window regulator failures, the seats rattling, the final stage unit, door actuators, trunk actuator, bad pixels in the displays, those terrible cup holders, etc. I'd rather get the M5 and deal with the possibility of carbon build up. I drove my 97 540 from 40k miles to 90k and all that stuff happened in that time. Cooling system, cats, seals multiple times, every little minor issue mentioned above. I wouldn't own one as a car I put a lot of mileage on.Harvey wrote: E39 540i, unreliable as hell, fast, fun. Get the six cylinder version if you don't want it to blow up in various ways.the 540i's reputation is sort of overblown, it just has four big weakpoints that can be addressed -the cooling system, which if you use a lower pressure 1.2bar cap and upgrade to a two speed electric cooling fan + aluminum expansion tank + metal impeller water pump, will last a good long while -the leaky seals, which previously were made with crappy buna rubber, now the OEM seals are made of viton which is indestructible and will probably outlast the car -the vanos system, which you can rebuild yourself over a weekend, and is actually nice since it makes the low end of the engine even more grunty than it would otherwise. -the timing chain guides, which give you plenty of warning before they go out (grinding sound on cold start) and is also a weekend job but you'll need to rent tools to lock the camshafts. you can also pay a shop to do all this, it'd be like 4 grand of parts and labor but that'll make the engine unkillable for another 150k miles at least
That was me.
I did like the way the car drove when it wasn't broken. Same with my dads 740i, which had a lot of issues as well.
None of these things are unable to be taken care of by a good DIY mechanic, but paying thousands to shore up the weak points on one of these doesn't make sense to me.
bmw88rider wrote: No one has mentioned the current crop of hot hatches because they are really too small for 4 people. There is not a lot of room in the back for longer drives. The G37 is not a miata or BRZ but it is a very capable 4 seat GT car that can run the quarter in 13.5 all day long and still fit the whole crew and their luggage in comfort and has some style to it. Think more mustang than Miata and you are on the right track.
OK, I see the disconnect here. Sorry I wasn't more specific. I'm looking for a 4 seat Miata that doesn't have punishing ride quality. Pretty much all the other requirements (that I didn't mention) don't apply in my case:
So 95% back roads local driving but I need to take the family occasionally and not have them complain.
From what I've read M3 sedan seems to be the benchmark. A little more lux+power than required but if they have some sort of magical suspension...
Sure sounds like 911 would be worth driving along with M series. Adjust year for budget in either example.
911....
RX-8 = 4 seat Miata
I had one of those too. Shinka version. Was a lot of fun. Great for what you want.
Then you really have 1 choice unless your kids are little people. RX-8
All of the sports sedans are going to be more GT based even the M3. It's just a matter of size and mass. You can't defy physics.
What about a Hyundai Genesis sedan? Regal Turbo Sedan?
If the G37 and BMW's are going to be to GT for you and you want more Miata, the only thing I can think of is the EVO. Even all of the exotics like the Maserati and Panamerica are going to be GTish. Nothing with 4 doors is going to be Miata like, not many cars period are going to be so.
E36 M3.
Buy one with low miles and few options.
Have it inspected and do a little preventative maintenance. Install Michelin Pilot Super Sports in factory staggered sizing.
Seriously stonking car. The sedan is so much better than the coupe, and the sport seats are vastly superior to Vaders in terms of comfort. Door panels feel better made as well.
Mine gets 23.6mpg with over 350 miles of 100+ degree freeway driving with some traffic mixed in. Would be better if I didn't cruise at 85.
My only gripes are inferior build quality on body and interior compared to E30 and E46 models and the lack of a sixth gear. Otherwise, what a glorious car.
Oh, and it cannot fit tall people comfortably in the back seat.
You want a 4 seat miata? Let's see... There's the RX8... and the RX8... Oh yeah, also the RX8! Take your pick
Everyone's throwing out luxury cars here (and potentially high maintenance ones), but if you want something in the dreaded "Mid Size" category that isn't a total appliance or a Penalty Box car I would suggest the new Mazda6.
I made my first BRAND NEW car purchase last year and I was determined to avoid buying another "fun car" that I would have the urge to modify since I bought my 84 GTI as a project car. So I avoided Audi, BMW, Focus ST, GTI, Si, WRX, etc. and aimed for something with good gas mileage and practicality.
I went with the Mazda6 because it has great styling, an attractive and well built interior, "adult sized" rear passenger leg room (I'm 6'1" and I can sit back there comfortably), great handling, and "acceptable" performance. It's not a speed demon by any means, but it's peppy enough to avoid being BORING. I'm also averaging 32.5 mpg and 400 miles on a tank when I am doing mostly highway driving. It is by FAR not as fun as a BMW, but it's a good compromise.
OK, obviously I will not retain Miata handling in a 4 seater... just looking to give up as little as possible.
What about Fiesta ST? Back seat looks large enough. Not RWD but I see rave handling reviews. Only 2700 lbs. Haven't driven one so don't know if the ride is family friendly.
Older M3 looks like the ticket if looking at cars from that era. It's too bad BMW doesn't sell the 1 or 2 series hatch in the US.
Harvey wrote:joekitch wrote:You forgot the cats that burn out regularly and have no good replacement and which cost $1500 or so per side. You can just keep welding in cheap aftermarket cats, but they keep burning out.Harvey wrote: E39 540i, unreliable as hell, fast, fun. Get the six cylinder version if you don't want it to blow up in various ways.the 540i's reputation is sort of overblown, it just has four big weakpoints that can be addressed -the cooling system, which if you use a lower pressure 1.2bar cap and upgrade to a two speed electric cooling fan + aluminum expansion tank + metal impeller water pump, will last a good long while -the leaky seals, which previously were made with crappy buna rubber, now the OEM seals are made of viton which is indestructible and will probably outlast the car -the vanos system, which you can rebuild yourself over a weekend, and is actually nice since it makes the low end of the engine even more grunty than it would otherwise. -the timing chain guides, which give you plenty of warning before they go out (grinding sound on cold start) and is also a weekend job but you'll need to rent tools to lock the camshafts. you can also pay a shop to do all this, it'd be like 4 grand of parts and labor but that'll make the engine unkillable for another 150k miles at least
On my first E38, the original cats went to 150k miles, and the Magnaflow high performance cats I used after that were $69 each and were still good when I got rid of the car 5 years later at 185k miles. If you're constantly burning out cats, you have something major wrong.
Most of them go for $5k to $10k depending on condition and aren't really worth owning. There are also a litany of minor issues that crop up over time that are more irritating than costly, like the window regulator failures, the seats rattling, the final stage unit, door actuators, trunk actuator, bad pixels in the displays, those terrible cup holders, etc.
I disagree. As not only a second time E38 owner, I'm part of a couple BMW owner's groups (including the E38 owner's group I started almost a decade agao) and have seen quite a few of these things (in the hundreds, not just one or two). At the $7-10k range, it's easy to find a good one that will be good for many, many years to come.
That being said, the E38 and E39 are easy cars to work on, and repairs can be done with OEM parts for less than the typical Honda or Toyota. Even big jobs like the timing chain guides on the V8 cars is fairly easy to do in a weekend.
I drove my 97 540 from 40k miles to 90k and all that stuff happened in that time. Cooling system, cats, seals multiple times, every little minor issue mentioned above. I wouldn't own one as a car I put a lot of mileage on.
Ahh, there's your problem. Yes, at that mileage a lot of stuff can happen. It's after that (in the 100-180k range) that you're pretty much golden as everything that can go wrong has, and has been fixed and will last for many years. My last one was my daily driver from 143k to 185k, and the current one was bought at 150k and is also my daily driver. I'd have no problem taking either of them across country at the drop of a hat. In fact, that's kind of the point: if we want to, we can just up and decide to drive to Florida to visit my brother in law, or up to Maine to visit my kid. And do so in comfort, style, and speed.
Chris_V wrote: On my first E38, the original cats went to 150k miles, and the Magnaflow high performance cats I used after that were $69 each and were still good when I got rid of the car 5 years later at 185k miles. If you're constantly burning out cats, you have something major wrong.
Don't know what to tell you, the car was totally stock and it burned out the cats. I did nothing other than driving it.
The E39 540i is well known for burning out the cats early. Not sure what if anything might be different on the E38, but it's a pretty common occurrence for people to be swapping the cats early on the E39 540i cars. I've talked with many owners that have to do it before 100k.
It's even noted here in this list of problems which is one of the more comprehensive out there.
http://540i6.com/probsfixes.html
Chris_V wrote: I disagree. As not only a second time E38 owner, I'm part of a couple BMW owner's groups (including the E38 owner's group I started almost a decade agao) and have seen quite a few of these things (in the hundreds, not just one or two). At the $7-10k range, it's easy to find a good one that will be good for many, many years to come.
I haven't really been saying much bad about the E38. I never personally owned one. My father made the mistake of owning one and taking it to a dealer that was terrible which I think was his main issue.
Chris_V wrote: That being said, the E38 and E39 are easy cars to work on, and repairs can be done with OEM parts for less than the typical Honda or Toyota. Even big jobs like the timing chain guides on the V8 cars is fairly easy to do in a weekend.
Valve cover gaskets are cheap no doubt, but even a pro mechanic will take a day to do the replacement, usually around six to eight hours. Most shade tree mechanics need a weekend at least. That's not particularly easy to work on from my POV. A Miata is easy to work on, an E39 or E38 not so much IMO.
Ahh, there's your problem. Yes, at that mileage a lot of stuff can happen. It's after that (in the 100-180k range) that you're pretty much golden as everything that can go wrong has, and has been fixed and will last for many years. My last one was my daily driver from 143k to 185k, and the current one was bought at 150k and is also my daily driver. I'd have no problem taking either of them across country at the drop of a hat. In fact, that's kind of the point: if we want to, we can just up and decide to drive to Florida to visit my brother in law, or up to Maine to visit my kid. And do so in comfort, style, and speed.
Maybe now, but back when I had mine the seals would let go with alarming regularity and you really needed to keep an eye on the cooling system because any of the components could go and if you didn't say notice the valley pan gasket leaking then you could end up with multiple failures as air intrudes into the system causing the water pump to fail. I had the expansion tank go, the water pump a couple of times.
The clutch was going by 90k too.
Again, though, not sure what we are talking about here, I'm talking E39 540 specifically, not E38 even though they share engines.
jv8 wrote: OK, obviously I will not retain Miata handling in a 4 seater... just looking to give up as little as possible. What about Fiesta ST? Back seat looks large enough. Not RWD but I see rave handling reviews. Only 2700 lbs. Haven't driven one so don't know if the ride is family friendly. Older M3 looks like the ticket if looking at cars from that era. It's too bad BMW doesn't sell the 1 or 2 series hatch in the US.
Seriously, RX-8.
Fiesta ST is fun from what I've seen. I like my Focus ST as well, but they are both different animals from a RWD sedan. I think the main difference between the two is sizing as they both handle pretty well.
Harvey wrote: Again, though, not sure what we are talking about here, I'm talking E39 540 specifically, not E38 even though they share engines.
They share way more than the engines. Basically it's only a slight size difference between the cars.
Oh, and the E39 was available with a manual behind the V8, which is a fairly easy swap these days into the E38. (well, it still requires some DME recoding, but that's entirely possible on a DIY basis nowadays).
We're a DIY board here, so doing DIY stuff on cars should be assumed and there's nothing difficult or expensive about the E38/E39. Yeah, like any fairly modern car, if you have to take it to a dealer, you're screwed for costs. But as we've discussed here before, with the low buy-in, a car like these is still going to be less to own/maintain/repair than buying a new economy car.
Harvey wrote: Seriously, RX-8.
You have me researching. First thing I stumbled across was a reasonably priced LS V8 conversion kit... now that seems like the 4 seat answer... 
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