7th-gen Camaro DOA?

Javelin said:

Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like 

Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.

I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.

dculberson said:

Javelin said:

Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like 

Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.

I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.

Agreed,  but I will say I like all three.  They’re all fun and enjoyable.  I feel like the newer SS is much more of a sports car vs the hemi challenger, which feels more GTish,  and the Mustang GT lies somewhere in between.  The track performance of the Camaro is definitely impressive.

Feedyurhed said:

The world is changing.  I think in the next ten years many (most) of  our "old friends" will be gone. EVs will out sell the ICE cars by a large margin, urban areas will have primarily autonomous vehicles and life as we know it will be considerably different. A transportation renaissance is in the making. It's coming and there is nothing that will stop it. 

I've got $10 that says you're wrong. 

People were saying the same thing 10 years ago and EVs/hybrids/etc are the same 3% of new car sales they were back then. 

With the average age of vehicles in the US being 12-14 years, this great revolution isnt on track to happen until 10+ years AFTER EVs make up most of new car sales, and they've still got a long way to go.

Flynlow said:

People were saying the same thing 10 years ago and EVs/hybrids/etc are the same 3% of new car sales they were back then. 

 

Uhh, in 8 years from 2010 to 2018, plug-in EV/hybrid sales have gone from 345 (that's three hundred and forty-five) to 361,307 per year. In no way is that "about the same." There is no 10 years ago when talking about mainstream EVs.

In reply to Flynlow :

Eh, I wouldn’t be so sure. California EV sales were 6% last year. What happens there catches on elsewhere. 

Plus 10 years ago there weren’t any viable Pure Ev’s - Tesla model S only came out in 2012. We’ve come a long way in a short time. 

What I don’t get is the animosity towards Ev’s. They can be berkeleying fun. Ferrari and Porsche wouldn’t be electrifying their top tier cars just for fun or Green Cred

dculberson said:

Flynlow said:

People were saying the same thing 10 years ago and EVs/hybrids/etc are the same 3% of new car sales they were back then. 

 

Uhh, in 8 years from 2010 to 2018, plug-in EV/hybrid sales have gone from 345 (that's three hundred and forty-five) to 361,307 per year. In no way is that "about the same." There is no 10 years ago when talking about mainstream EVs.

The numbers i referenced were inclusive of EVs, plug in hybrids, and regular hybrids.   They have averaged 1-3% of new car sales all the way back to the original prius.  Your graph is heavily weighted towards 2018, and reflects tax credits and economic conditions that may not persist moving forward.   I stand by what i said. 

A graph of anything 2010-2018 shows record growth, we were digging out from 2008.

EDIT: Dug up the data I based this view on, the last time the topic came up a couple years ago, I'm disappointed they havent kept it updated:

https://www.bts.gov/content/sales-hybrid-vehicles-united-states

Only source i could find in 5 min searching for updated numbers:

https://afdc.energy.gov/data/mobile/10301

stanger_missle said:

So a decent GM product was GM'd to death?

This is my shocked face

They are working that same magic on their trucks. Not only do Silverados have to compete with GMCs that only serve to make the Chevys seem entry level and basic, but they also have been saddled with a promotion strategy that instead of telling us what is good about the trucks and why we should buy them, they tell us that some Chevy employees have different sexual orientations than some others and I guess that is why we should run out and drop $60k on a Chevy. If that weren't enough they made the trucks so ugly I cannot imagine many people find them attractive or stylish.

They have been passed by Ram in sales this year, so it doesn't seem to be a winning strategy. So, yeah GM continues to do GM things. I suppose when it all goes south again, we will bail them out again against our will.

Kind of sad about the Camaro. I like that they exist. I don't think I would go out and look at them with an eye to buy one though.

cdeforrest said:

What I don’t get is the animosity towards Ev’s. They can be berkeleying fun. Ferrari and Porsche wouldn’t be electrifying their top tier cars just for fun or Green Cred

I have no animosity towards EVs.  I cant wait for the porsche misson-e/taycan to come out, and have idly looked at used model S's. 

I can just do math when it comes to 10 year predictions. ;)

dculberson said:

Javelin said:

Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like 

Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.

I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.

The SS 1LE might be able to lay one lap down better than a GT350R, but then it will cook the brakes and diff and blue the side airbags. There's a reason you don't see hardly any Camaros on track...

cdeforrest said:

In reply to Flynlow :

What I don’t get is the animosity towards Ev’s. They can be berkeleying fun. Ferrari and Porsche wouldn’t be electrifying their top tier cars just for fun or Green Cred

I don't necessarily have anything against them, in principal, but I have no desire to buy/own one. Just personal preference on that.

As for the end of the Camaro... I am mildly surprised as there are a lot on the road down here but I'm also not given the disparity between CUVs/SUVs and everything else. For every Camaro or Mustang, there's scores of overgrown Corollas and Altimas rolling around with projector headlights aimed for the moon. (Ford pickups are the worst for blinding headlights, though)

I just think we're at a point where performance of just about everything is considered "good enough" now so there's less demand for a brand new pony car with capabilities that the average person can't even tickle on normal roads, and more demand for functional vehicles like CUVs. It seems like everything has 300hp now. Everything is safe. Everything can do 90mph with the AC on full blast. Everything except Italian stuff has a pretty good chance of doing 100k miles with little drama. So it comes down to styling (which Chevy has sucked at) and functionality (which Camaro sucks at).

Also, no matter what product you make, if you want to sell a lot of them, it has to be easy to use. For vehicles, that means being able to fit in it and see out of it. The Camaro seems to have issues in that regard for large percentages of the population. In general it seems like the young guys that lust after pony cars for their performance can't afford to buy them new, and the older people that can afford them often have old bodies or things like families that make spending $40k on an impractical, fun car a tough sell.

If you look at sales of something like a Miata or Cayman There's still demand for new, impractical, fun cars from a dedicated few but it's probably about 10k units/yr mark instead of the 30-40k/yr that GM probably needs to make a business case for the Camaro.

The most damning remark I heard about the Camaro was when Motor Trend did their Head2Head of the 6th-gen Camaro and the Hellcat Widebody. While Johnny Liebermann and Jethro Bovingdon were driving the Camaro ZL1 they said that while they knew the Camaro was faster accelerating, better handling and better braking, they still couldn't stop thinking about the Hellcat and couldn't wait to get back into it. The Camaro was capable of great things, but it just didn't get into their head and heart like the Challenger did. I think its interesting how Dodge, aside from the demon, stopped really chasing performance bogies and instead focused on building a car that is fun and makes you feel like being a hooligan. I sat in a V6 Challenger and something about the design just makes you immediately feel like a badass in a way that the Camaro and Mustang don't do. I don't think Dodge's emotional connection angle is a bad idea either and its clearly working for them in carving out their own corner of the market.

Some if you are in serious denial about the weights of new performance cars.  Anybody know the weight of a M2 these days?

Flynlow said:

The numbers i referenced were inclusive of EVs, plug in hybrids, and regular hybrids.   They have averaged 1-3% of new car sales all the way back to the original prius.  Your graph is heavily weighted towards 2018, and reflects tax credits and economic conditions that may not persist moving forward.   I stand by what i said. 

Ahh, the disconnect is in including regular hybrids. I don't really consider those comparable to EVs at all. They're just pure gasoline powered cars, with improved efficiency. I consider an EV a very different car from a regular hybrid. I don't know that they will outsell ICE cars in 10 years but I do think the growth in sales will continue.

It was too expensive and too hard to see out of. A Vette was not much more than the top performance trims, so why bother if you want to go to the track?

If you only care about the street, the competition was cheaper and better looking and more practical.

GM gonna GM. First they price their stuff too high because they want to be profitable and then they cancel it for having a low volume.  On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors still rings true.

racerfink said:

Some if you are in serious denial about the weights of new performance cars.  Anybody know the weight of a M2 these days?

Right around 3600 lbs.

Javelin said:

dculberson said:

Javelin said:

Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like 

Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.

I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.

The SS 1LE might be able to lay one lap down better than a GT350R, but then it will cook the brakes and diff and blue the side airbags. There's a reason you don't see hardly any Camaros on track...

The fact that you are comparing a $45k car to a $69k car proves the point quite nicely. 

So the 1LE coolers are good for one lap on the diff? Where can I find said info?

dculberson said:

@Rslifkin: The current Camaros are way lighter than your 7 series. Well, maybe not enough lighter for a sport car, but they're anywhere from 100-900lbs lighter depending on the trim level of the Camaro and of the 7 series. Remember the 6th gen Camaro is significantly smaller and lighter than the 5th gen.

The weight comment was aimed at the Challenger, not the Camaro.  

Product planners also look at where the market is going. If they can't make money by creating a new generation, they're not going to do it. I guess the other question is, does it need a complete overhaul? See the Dodge strategy.

I suspect the Camaro has two issues (other than warranty support); They built a car reviewers would love and the visibility is not awesome. That said, visibility is a bit compromised in almost all sporty cars/coupes.

I simply cannot wrap my head around why 2+2 seat cars are so difficult to sell. Why is it that people in the past were willing to make compromises for performance and style, but not today?

I'm not sure if sales volume vs. the competition is a problem, or if it's more of a segment volume problem. The cost to produce a high content vehicle vs. a low content vehicle isn't all that different. The profits are very different. The Camaro has a higher selling price than it's immediate competitors. Compare VAG profits per segment. Audi and Porsche generate a disproportionate amount of profit.

I recently had one of the best days of my life in recent years when I sold (to dealership) my horribly problematic 6th gen Camaro. Sooo much stress is gone. After triple digit days in service at the dealership in a bit over half a year and a hideous warranty experience, I absolutely cannot endorse them and I would strongly encourage others considering one to run away.

If you're comparing fully functional cars, it's difficult to fault the Camaro. Too heavy? Compared to what? (base is 3300-3600lbs) Not fast enough - nothing is faster per dollar. Handling/feel not engaging enough - compared to what a Cayman? Cooling issues - my understanding is the >SS and 1LE cars were all tested by driving them on a track for 24 hour straight changing only brakes and gas as necessary. I've read about Mustang GT and C6/C7 limitations...

Magnetic shocks are available as an option for the base 1SS. They're default on the SS 1LE, ZL1. They're not availble in the LS, LT, ZL1 1LE.

I am younger too, and growing up with the imports through my high school/college years has me appreciating things like visibility and a lightweight chassis. I always thought the Camaro SS was cool back in the day, but driving one with the HUGE dash and never-ending hood really soured me on the driving experience (not to mention the plastics and build quality). I can't imagine I would like the size or lack of visibility in these new ones, maybe I'm wrong but I don't really care to try.

I would love to have a third, weekend toy, and while the Camaro seems to do a lot of great things on paper it would honestly never even make my list (I could totally see a Challenger, Mustang, BRZ on that list however).

So, I'm sure it will be missed but I can't say I'm surprised. Also, i was totally anti-EV for no real reason for the longest time, but the things I'm seeing lately with the Model 3 autocrosser and the performance of the Model S have definitely changed my opinion to the point where I could see giving one a shot.

I think STM317 nailed it.  Everything now is quite competent and more than fast enough for the daily drive.  My commute in Denver isn't all that bad and I could barely use the power that my old, ponderous GX470 had, let alone something like a Camaro SS.

At that point you just want something comfortable, with good visibility,  infotainment and strong AC.

Snrub said:

I simply cannot wrap my head around why 2+2 seat cars are so difficult to sell. Why is it that people in the past were willing to make compromises for performance and style, but not today?

Most of the modern 2+2's......aren't.   The back seat is decoration only, putting either front seat in a position where you can actually drive butts it up against the rear seat cushion, completely eliminating footspace.   The front seat cushion is also too low to tuck your feet under.  Most also have appalling headroom.

The older 2+2's I have 1st hand experience with (gc8 impreza, e30/e46 bmw, r32 skyline, 65 mustang, a few others) could comfortably seat four 5'10", 180lb adults to go to lunch or short (1-2 hour) roadtrips.  You might have to stretch and do some gymnastics to get IN to the backseat, but once there were reasonably comfortable.  

I don't know how or why that changed when new cars are so much larger, but the interior volume and ergonomics have not improved for the backseat. 

I've had seat time in both the current Mustang and Challenger in various forms, and to be honest, they are both great cars. Seriously, you cannot go wrong with either one! I am a big guy, and I found both of them easy to get into and get comfortable. The Mustang is really nice inside and approaching the Euro luxury cars for interior quality, and while the Challenger is a little less nice, it is by no means bad and makes up for it by giving you ample room and comfort. I had zero problems with visibility with either one.

The Camaro, on the other hand, was hard to get into and I hit my head on the roof when trying to get to a position I could see out of it. I had to lean the seat way back to fit, and at that point, I couldn't see out the sides or the back. It's like someone designed it to look cool at all costs while sacrificing everything else that makes it useable. I'm sure it's a very competent car, but it's flat out uncomfortable! For the record, I had no issues with its platform-mate Cadillac ATS. Even the ATS Coupe had a greenhouse you could see out of. Why not the Camaro?

GM has a rich history of ALMOST getting it and giving up when they are so close. They have been doing this for decades. Canceling the Camaro doesn't surprise me one bit.

My worry is that if the Camaro goes away (again), what will happen to the Mustang, since it'll soon be the only car Ford makes?