Am I crazy? Saab content...

OK. I realized in the last week that I am in fact a Saab guy. I'm not an architect or engineer, but I have come to love the quirks of Saabs. Currently my wife and I DD early 2000s Saabs. They are arguably the last of the real Saabs or the first of the GM cars. I am aware of their sludge issues and really try to keep on top of them to prevent said issues. They have reputations of being sort of unreliable and needing lots of attention. I'm not sure that I agree, but anyhow: on to my quandry...

So a car popped up locally that peeked my interest. It is a 9-5 advertised with engine troubles. I talked to the seller tonight who says that the body and interior are in excellent condition. The problem though is that he was driving and the oil light came on. It started "knocking" and he parked it right away.

I know enough to know without even looking at the car that the engine has an issue with the oil pickup tube and the resulting sludge and/or oil starvation.

I personally see the car as being worth the purchase price for a handfull of parts, wheels and tires I can pull off of it. I have convinced the wife (with very little effort) that its a great deal for the parts alone.

So on to the actual question: if one of these engines is sludged up is the much of a chance of un-sludging it and having a running car on the cheap with a little work? Or am I better off taking what I want and scrapping the rest? Or buying a used engine for $1500 and popping it in? The end result being having another DD (spare?), a pile of parts, or making a little money?

What is the GRM response?

If it got to the point of knocking, you're going to need to rebuild or replace the engine in order to continue driving that one.

You are better off parting the car out. If the oil light is on and you have a knock, it is too late, the damage has been done, no amount of de-sludging will ever fix it short of a full rebuild. A member on the board here attempted to fix a 9-5 with the same issue. After tons of painstaking bottom end work to get it going, he found out the head was junk too from oil starvation. He wasn't too happy. Not sure what ever happened to the car.

Also, since Saabs are getting really cheap now, unless it is a Viggen or Aero or something cool, you'd probably spend more on swapping in a new engine than you would to just buy another car...these cars are worth WAY more in parts than they are whole.

A buddy just got burned on an '01 9-5 that lunched the motor within 150 miles of him buying it. (I wasn't around to consult.) Is the sludge issue unique to a particular motor?

alex wrote: A buddy just got burned on an '01 9-5 that lunched the motor within 150 miles of him buying it. (I wasn't around to consult.) Is the sludge issue unique to a particular motor?

2.0/2.3 Saabs with T7 engine management are the only ones affected, and only the early ones at that - the factory resolved the problem in 2003 by updating the PCV system (available for relatively cheap as a retrofit to earlier cars) and mandating the use of synthetic oil only with 5k changes.

From 1999-2002 they came from the factory with semi-synthetic and a longer change interval, which overstressed the already weak PCV system. Most sludge problems are due to owners running too long between changes and using crap oil.

Saab put out multiple TSBs for the early cars about the PCV update and use of synthetic, but many cars were already on to their second or third owner at that point...and if the oil threads on this board are any example, there are still people out there who will say "oil is oil" and blatantly ignore the TSBs.

^This. But the T7 2.0's got it just the same.

thestig99 wrote: ^This. But the T7 2.0's got it just the same.

Oops! Forgot all about the T7 2.0.

All 9-5s, 9-3 Viggens, and '01-'03 9-3s have the "T-7" engines. They are known for oiling issues and sludge build up. So much so that Saab replaced engines at no charge basically until they went belly up. There are a number of theories on this: 1. the oil change interval suggested in the manual was way too long 2. the PCV system, which had 6 updates, was an issue 3. the oil pump pickup screen is too small

The bottom end of a 2.3 9000 turbo engine can be swapped in to a 9-5 too, and its a lot more robust. If I were picking up a 9-5 project thats what I would do.

Good info, fellas. Thanks!

So what about de-sludging? Lets say that I pulled the head and cleaned it up, then pulled the pan, replaced the bearings, and did several oil/filter changes over short intervals? Crazy?

asoduk wrote: So what about de-sludging? Lets say that I pulled the head and cleaned it up, then pulled the pan, replaced the bearings, and did several oil/filter changes over short intervals? Crazy?

Well, while you're in there, you're going to need all new gaskets, a timing chain, guides and sprockets (all will be worn from oil starvation), probably a valve job, almost definitely a new turbo (if it has bottom end knock, the turbo is surely dead too), etc...and that's not counting what your time is worth! All that stuff will add up to way more than the car is worth very quickly.

For all the money you spend fixing that engine, you could just buy another engine.

For the cost of another engine, you could buy another Saab that runs and doesn't need all this work.

But you already have two!

It's not like this is a car you've owned since new, it doesn't sound like an Aero or Viggen or anything desirable either. And it's not filling a void in your stable either! So why throw a bunch of money away? You are only going to lose on the backside. We are talking about an orphan brand here after all. I paid $1100 cash for my '99 9-5 LPT 5-speed. Around here you are hard pressed to pay more than $2k for any Saab but the absolute mintest Viggen or Aero, and even those are in the $3k range.

So, yes, you are crazy.

Thanks Slick. Need any parts for your '99?

I think I'll have everything but: ECU harness, a tail light, BBS wheels, drivers seat controls, some known to die electrical bits and the in dash cup holder...

Take the parts & scrap it. I inherited a 20k mile 9-5 with sludge & bought a wreckedno-sludge 9-5 for $900 from Copart. I then swapped the whole engine, trans & front cradle from the wreck into my low miler. It was a good car when I got it all done. It was a lot of work & when I was done, i had to practically beg someone to pay me $4000 for it. Remember it had 22k miles & was cosmetically perfect. These are hard projects to justify when the resale sucks so badly.

M030: what is the deal with copart? I just looked and there are a ton of 9-5s with no bids. How often do really low online bids actually work out?

asoduk wrote: Thanks Slick. Need any parts for your '99? I think I'll have everything but: ECU harness, a tail light, BBS wheels, drivers seat controls, some known to die electrical bits and the in dash cup holder...

I actually sold it about a year ago, went to an Alfa, then a 9000 turbo, and now a BMW. At 212k the clutch was starting to let go and I didn't want to deal with it. Got back what I paid, though.

When 2.3 turbo long blocks are $250 on ebay, why the hell would you scrap a car that's in great shape except the motor?

asoduk wrote: OK. I realized in the last week that I am in fact a Saab guy. I'm not an architect or engineer, but I have come to love the quirks of Saabs. Currently my wife and I DD early 2000s Saabs. They are arguably the last of the real Saabs or the first of the GM cars.

I would argue that your dates are off for the last of the True Saabs first of the GM. 94 was the first of the GM influence when they introduced the NG900.. sometimes called the GM900. I had one and hated it.

I stay with the OG900s now. Much better car,

As for your issues.. with the prices on these (admittedly good) cars having fallen into the basement after the death (rebirth, death, and finally reborn again?) of Saab.. you can pick and choose the best of them for not a lot of money. I would hold out for one with a known history that runs great

asoduk wrote: M030: what is the deal with copart? I just looked and there are a ton of 9-5s with no bids. How often do really low online bids actually work out?

Those are just pre-bids. There is a live auction on the date noted where the "real" bidding takes place. Each car is on the block for less than 1 minute. That said, most people are bidding on late model wrecks to rebuild, not old SAABs so I wouldn't be surprised if they went for close to the pre-bid price.