In :)
In :)
In reply to mazdeuce:
Well, after a visit to Denver earlier in the year, my wife's already looking for an excuse to go back to Colorado...
It's only 1100 miles one way from here, after all.
I have a friend who is one of "those guys" tracking his Porsches and Ferraris. We used to do ski vacations together. I keep trying to talk him into doing a tour of all the tracks in the country. But instead of driving to and fro, he'd just buy a surplus C130 and take all his pals along. 
I've seen several cars get wrecked at Pueblo because of the wall on the outside of turn 10.
Just recently at an open track day at High Plains my friends GTS2 car got t-boned by a guy who, despite being a novice, put himself in the "fast" group. Did a ton of damage to my friends car, denied responsibility, then blamed my friend for causing the incident. Video proved otherwise.
I basically don't do open track days anymore, there's just too many variables in the attitudes of the people running, their skill sets and how (or even if) they've prepped their cars.
The slow car/fast car issue in the lower run groups is an issue, it can create a lot of problems. I always advise my students to utilize the hot pits, that'll usually get a few more relatively clear laps. That being said, there's no way I'd let a novice group on track with open passing. They're much too overwhelmed with just being on track, let alone passing or being passed safely with no rules.
That T10 wall is close at Pueblo, and you've got to cross over the drag strip launch area to get there with multiple changes in traction. I've never seen a car go into it, but I have noticed that most drivers leave a lot of margin there.
T10 at Pueblo is especially bad on a Saturday morning after they have had the Friday night drags. The fresh rubber is really a problem. A bit of rain makes things even worse.
I still love Pueblo, but its a shame they didn't really fix T 10 when they had a chance.
-chris r.
I'm dreading HPDE1-2 in a 500hp exocet. Hopefully I can get out of that quagmire in a weekend. I wish more wheel experience trasferred into a nasa license.
I swear, fixing T10 has been on the to-do list at Pueblo since my first visit there 15 years ago.
Any idea how much of a road block a stock NA (+roll bar, star specs, and picking brake pads now) would be at VIR/Summit Point/Dominion Raceway (I know no one has run there yet really).
johndej wrote: Any idea how much of a road block a stock NA (+roll bar, star specs, and picking brake pads now) would be at VIR/Summit Point/Dominion Raceway (I know no one has run there yet really).
The answer to that is really based on your experience level. If you are an advanced driver, instructor or racer that is used to dealing with the flow then almost none whatsover.
It is in the more inexperienced groups that require acknowledgement, then permission to overtake where bottlenecks occur. Often times - in the beginning group it's the easier to drive cars that are faster regardless of HP so... it's those guys in the Miatas complaining they are being held up. Then, when the faster car drivers learn a little more the opposite becomes true.
Once everyone is up to speed - they should be able to work the traffic so they are not held up and are not holding anyone up very much at all.
However, it can be very tedious to be a very experienced driver, driving a slow car in very fast, equally skilled company. I'd rather race a slow car in a similar class than DE one.
Dietcoke wrote: I'm dreading HPDE1-2 in a 500hp exocet. Hopefully I can get out of that quagmire in a weekend. I wish more wheel experience trasferred into a nasa license.
What part of the country are you in? I know most of the people in Texas who you would talk to about that.
Keith Tanner wrote: I swear, fixing T10 has been on the to-do list at Pueblo since my first visit there 15 years ago.
wearymicrobe wrote:sesto elemento wrote: In the movie "rush" they are arguing about if it's safe to run the ring in the rain, during this argument, someone says that Lauda is just scared, to this he replies that he has the track record, close to 7 mins flat (I don't remember exactly what his time was). That 's in a formula 1 car on slicks.I was just talking today about this at a show with some s2K guys that run at Willow. Niki did a 6:58 ring time in 1975. Most cars of that era like had like 500hp in race trim (1975 Ferrari 312T) I imagine that some privately owned cars on this forum can do that time at the ring. I am betting one of mine can do it on slicks with the AC running and a much better driver then me. So yeah completely different idea of speed now.
Keep in mind, the Nurburgring was a different layout in '75... a bit over a mile longer than now. Also, keep in mind that 'Manufacturer Times' are different than the Touristenfahrten (TF) laptimes. Manufacturer Times are essentially 'flying laps' including using the full Dottingen Holle, whereas the TF are 'Bridge to Gantry' and start/stop on that straight.
I'd agree with other posts about opening up passing zones in Intermediate. That was one of the eye-opening aspects of getting laps at the 'Ring... which is essentially "open passing" as long as it's on the left (in TF in operates as a public road)... thus turn signals are used for point-bys (indicate right to show that you see the car behind, car behind indicates left to pass). I found it's a lot easier to handle multiple 'point-bys' with turn signals than with 'hand out the window'.
I'll agree with others before, that I've noticed an increase in the speed of drivers in Intermediate now compared to 2010 or so. I think a lightly modded NB, though, is getting to about the sweet spot of power/handling compared to a 1.6 early-1.8 NA.
johndej wrote: Any idea how much of a road block a stock NA (+roll bar, star specs, and picking brake pads now) would be at VIR/Summit Point/Dominion Raceway (I know no one has run there yet really).
If you would like to HPDE those tracks with Founders Region PCA, you will be welcome, and a good time will be had by all. I actually keep thinking about renting a prepped Miata to run at Summit Main with PCA just to see what the car is like. I even did Watkins Glen with Miatas in the mid-level run groups with Founders PCA.
I don't know anything about the other groups that run on those tracks; they may be fine for Miatas too. The BMW clubs I run with would have no problem with the car's speed, but they require a fixed roof, so Miatas, Boxters, Z3s and Z4s, etc. are out.
Having just signed up for my first Track Night in America in the Abarth, I'm a little concerned about my very novice driving and 160-170HP car mixed in with Mustang's, Challenger's, Porsche varieties, etc.
I could drive the MR2 and just leave my left arm out the window making circles pointing everyone by continuously...
Road America, Road Atlanta, and Texas World Speedway all need groups by car speed as well as driver experience. A Miata doing 105 MPH into 1 at TWS might as well be parked compared to the 160 MPH 'Vettes, and the same applies into turn 3, turn 4, turn 7, and turn 10. Road America makes everything slower than an IndyCar look like it's crawling.
Reviving an old thread to see what's changed.
I'd definitely like to start getting out to the track occasionally. But the HP and speed arms race concerns me - as of now I'd be in either a '88 944S (slow) or a '85 190E (not 16V - VERY slow). I did a single Intro to HPDE day back like 15 yrs ago with PCA (in the same 944S!) and it was fine, but the fastest cars I remember from that day were 996s. Which would also be slow now. That's my only on-track experience. I did a bit of autocrossing for a few years, and do an electric karting session a couple times a year, so I'm not a total newby, but I may as well be.
I'm in the DC area. Seems like advice #1 is to choose a short, technical track with minimal long straights, so Jefferson circuit at Summit Point is a good choice. Any suggestions, things to avoid, clubs to run with, clubs to avoid, etc. are appreciated!
This is one of the many reasons that I sold my play car, giving up on HPDEs. As noted, more and more people show up in very capable off-the-shelf cars capable of very high speed. Couple that with me usually running at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana CA (NASCAR track + infield), or Willow Springs ("fastest track in the west") means you need high power and low drag to "stay relevant". Another big reason for my loss of interest was that, in my opinion, the pits have lost that amateur feel, where everyone used to run older cars and worked on them themselves. More and more people show up in $50-120K newish (reliable) cars capable of pulling 175mph down the front straight. Also, newer cars have much more technology, making it less likely to see people under the hood. So, when they pull into the pits, the drivers tend to have little in common with "those" people with older and slower cars. At the last few events I attended, comradery seemed much less then when I ran my Datsun 1200 in the 1980's and early 90s.
I was very impressed by the Super Miatas and their lap times, but agree that even they get screwed if mixed in with high-powered cars that can't corner as well. The restricted passing areas - typically corners or short straights - means that the Miatas can't get by there, but once on the long straight, the high powered cars pull ahead enough to not allow passing - anywhere.
I know I'm just echoing what others have said, and I realize that there are venues out there which help sort this out, but not so much in my area, so I watch from the sidelines these days.
kb58 said:This is one of the many reasons that I sold my play car, giving up on HPDEs. As noted, more and more people show up in very capable off-the-shelf cars capable of very high speed. Couple that with me usually running at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana CA (NASCAR track + infield), or Willow Springs ("fastest track in the west") means you need high power and low drag to "stay relevant".
So go to Buttonwillow or Streets of Willow? And there are plenty of groups out there with a different mix of cars.
Funny to see this thread come back up after so many years! New cars certainly aren't getting any slower, that's for sure.
Suffice to say, I now live in California, and should be finding out this summer just how outgunned I am at Laguna Seca and Sonoma in a basically stock-drivetrain NC Miata...
I did an event at Lime Rock just before the pandemic and was constantly checking my mirrors. Never really got to learn the track. Had maybe 1 or 2 good laps. I was in an intermediate group. Surrounded by R8s, modern M3s, and Vettes. I was driving my 83 Rabbit GTI (former IT car). It was not fun.
Not much has changed, and HPDE is more popular than ever. Our primary organization had 18 new drivers at the last event, and 27(!) at the event before that.
We have a Miata that we run in HPDE and TT, and in the HPDE experienced groups I don't have too many problems, except the occasional 'fast' guy that just got bumped up, but doesn't watch his mirrors. My wife drives the car in the lower groups and has had good and bad days.... there's still a lot of folks that think they're going to set lap records on their very first day at the track. It wasn't any different when I was racing motorcycles 20 years ago.
IMHO, it's on the organization to properly 'socialize' the new drivers through instruction and driver's meetings, and take action when folks don't follow the rules and become discourteous and/or dangerous on track.
Out here in the Southwest, the PCA events have been the best we've attended for courtesy on track and drivers showing the requisite restraint for HPDE. They are also the best about stressing in the driver's meetings that it's HPDE not racing.
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:I did an event at Lime Rock just before the pandemic and was constantly checking my mirrors. Never really got to learn the track. Had maybe 1 or 2 good laps. I was in an intermediate group. Surrounded by R8s, modern M3s, and Vettes. I was driving my 83 Rabbit GTI (former IT car). It was not fun.
I drive a car barely capable of 92mph at most tracks and it's not an issue.
Here is why:
Most groups only allow passing on straight aways and only with a point by.
I tell students all the time; it doesn't matter if there are 90 cars in your mirrors. Focus on driving your line and worry about pointing everyone by when you get to a passing zone......they can't pass till you get there anyway.
I race in multi class race groups and there is a 30 second difference between the slowest and faster car in each group and we manage without issue.
As for the intermediate level and above (my opinion) is one should be able to funnel cars past and drive and the same time.
Pretty sure people are more worried about denting their Porsche or Audi than I am my Datsun.
My .02
Years ago (circa 2009?) I was looking at trying my first HPDE, but the car I had that wouldn't have crippled me if something happened was an 86 BMW E30 eta automatic. I elected not to because it would have been a butter knife at a gun fight. So I kept autocrossing my good car (that would have financially wrecked me if something happened), traded the E30 for a Miata, figured out that I was too tall to make a bar easily work and then it was graduating college and getting career in gear.
I wound up getting the F500 and my first track time will likely be with Pennsylvania Hillclimb association in that. I miiighhht do a hpde sometime in my mustang, but likely going to focus on the F500 and possibly progressing to w2w license, depending how I like the track events with PHA
In reply to Tom1200 :
I couldn't agree more. Passing is on the straights with point by only. Don't worry about someone behind you. Be aware they are there and when you get to the straights, point them by. If they're that fast, they should be in a different run group.
I had my Sentra SE-R Spec V out yesterday with my son driving. We had a 991 and Huracan in our run group. We had a great time.
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