Anyone else's local HPDE groups not have a place for slower cars anymore?

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I couldn't agree more.  Passing is on the straights with point by only.  Don't worry about someone behind you.  Be aware they are there and when you get to the straights, point them by.  If they're that fast, they should be in a different run group.  

I had my Sentra SE-R Spec V out yesterday with my son driving.  We had a 991 and Huracan in our run group.  We had a great time.

I do all those things. "If they're that fast they should be in a higher run group" doesn't apply when they drive an R8 and have less experience on the same track. Get a bunch of high priced cars with low experience drivers and things can get unmanageable.

Just drive. I had my 95 m3 in the intermediate group and would have a blast dicing with higher hp cars. Give me the keys to the miata and send me out in the beginner group, promise I will have fun keeping someone's mirror loaded up. 

Have fun and relax, stress is self induced and atleast in a lower hp car you don't have to lift to let others by. If you find yourself slowing down trains of people you need to brake less and consider stickier tires :-)

Also stay away from road Atlanta/ road America

Realistically most of the time vehicle speed isn't the limiting factor in novice groups. If you're a half decent driver you'll be the one being held up most of the time. If anything a slower car might be a benefit in that situation. If you decide to stick with it and progress to higher run groups, then you can decide if you feel like you need a more fun, er I mean faster, car.

This sounds like a track selection issue. If you enjoy slow cars and low consumables, go join b-spec

I would like to take a moment and point out that the original post I wrote to start this thread is seven years old. Stuff like Track Night in America didn't exist back then, Sundae Cup and B-Spec were barely a blip, etc.

That being said, carry on.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I couldn't agree more.  Passing is on the straights with point by only.  Don't worry about someone behind you.  Be aware they are there and when you get to the straights, point them by.  If they're that fast, they should be in a different run group.  

I had my Sentra SE-R Spec V out yesterday with my son driving.  We had a 991 and Huracan in our run group.  We had a great time.

I do all those things. "If they're that fast they should be in a higher run group" doesn't apply when they drive an R8 and have less experience on the same track. Get a bunch of high priced cars with low experience drivers and things can get unmanageable.

This was pretty much what I was getting at. People seem to be showing up with faster, and faster, and faster cars, and my local track at the time was Road America, which is a fast track. The reality is pretty much that having a slower car with orgs that mostly draw guys with serious hardware is a weird place to be, and from the commentary here, it seems like a lot of the orgs could do a better job managing the run groups in that regard.

In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :

I get it; I have encountered folks in GT3-RSs crawling through the corners and launching down the straights.  I've also had ND Miata glued to my bumper mid corner.

For me it's a matter of perspective; I recently had a friend holding me up horribly in his Speed3. Took two laps before he realized he had to completely lift out of the throttle.

I was about to pull in to get a gap.

This is part of track days.

I do understand that if it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you. 

I run DE with NASA and just finished a track day at Lime Rock yesterday in my stockish NA with a tired 1.8 engine. They grouped DE3 and DE4 together and I was the slowest of the bunch by far, but I was still able to learn and feel at home among the outrageous high hp cars by: 

1 lining up nearly last in the hot pits. 

2 giving point by's coming down the downhill onto the front straight so others can keep their pace. This also makes it easier for me to keep my own pace. No need to lift for point bys in a stock Miata lol. 

3 socializing with drivers on the paddock

4 getting an instructor for a session. It's always helpful and with the price of admission these days, why not use every resource? 

5 reminding myself it's a privilege to be out here at all in any capacity! And for what I spend on my NA, I'm cheating the system.

The traffic issues yesterday were the result of someone showing up first time at Lime Rock with their new GTS and being humbled by the drivers in their much less expensive cars.. that guy left by the afternoon which is too bad, honestly. It's the same old story. Most people still show up to learn, but a few are there to flex. 
 

all this is to say, my tired Miata is a wet noodle driven by a wet noodle but I'm still driving it right up to my limit all day and not really holding anyone up (much). With more seat time, tire, and an engine refresh, things should get interesting. NA track Miata is still hot in 2023. Just keep checking those wheel bearings...
 

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Part of it is the leap in technology in the past 10 years. It's similar to the leap from 1979 to 1989.

I will say that being around slow cars whose drivers are aware of their surroundings has never been much of a problem for me. Especially in higher level groups that allow passing basically anywhere (and in limited passing groups you just have to understand that not every lap is going to be clear and you might have to pull in to find some space or take a half lap of cooldown, which in most stock-ish cars isn't a terrible idea anyway). The only time I ever really had an issue with a miata was the time that I expected them to give me a point by towards the end of a straight based on prior interactions with them, but they didn't and then also braked earlier than I expected and I had to basically panic brake to not rear end them. But that was at least a little my fault for expecting a point by in a slightly sketchy area. I had much more issues with the GT3 driver that was just slow enough to be holding me up and apparently needed me to be basically bump drafting them to realize I wanted to pass. At one point I was in an advanced/instructor group that was basically just me and a handful of gridlife spec fits with very good drivers but still running like 20s slower laps than me. I had pretty much zero issues getting held up by them. As a decent driver in a moderately fast car, I'd much prefer to be around slow cars with good, alert drivers than fast cars driven by idiots.

I had a similar but reversed issue in my MINI JCW, a Camaro would pull me on the straights and I would be frustrated the rest of the lap waiting for them to get around the corners, only to have them pull me on the straights again. IF I ever did get around them I was gone in a lap......

I decided life was too short and just pulled down the pit in and waited for him to get almost all the way around then went out ahead of him......I still caught him again in about 3 laps, so I went and had a chat with him.....

NorseDave said:

Reviving an old thread to see what's changed.

I'd definitely like to start getting out to the track occasionally.  But the HP and speed arms race concerns me - as of now I'd be in either a '88 944S (slow) or a '85 190E (not 16V - VERY slow).  I did a single Intro to HPDE day back like 15 yrs ago with PCA (in the same 944S!) and it was fine, but the fastest cars I remember from that day were 996s.  Which would also be slow now.   That's my only on-track experience.  I did a bit of autocrossing for a few years, and do an electric karting session a couple times a year, so I'm not a total newby, but I may as well be. 

I'm in the DC area.  Seems like advice #1 is to choose a short, technical track with minimal long straights, so Jefferson circuit at Summit Point is a good choice.  Any suggestions, things to avoid, clubs to run with, clubs to avoid, etc. are appreciated!

I'm local-ish to you and Summit is also my closest track. I don't have that much experience running with the various organizations here (yet) as don't spend that much time at HDPE these days.

That said, my experience is with PCA and SCCA. I like running with both, although I like PCA a tad better as it seems easier to get an instructor with them and I think the quality of the instruction is just a tick better at PCA.

Interesting to hear all the varied thoughts.  Obviously I won't know until I get out there, but this def gives me some thoughts about how to approach it.  

Boxhead Tim, which PCA chapter do you usually run with?  Or just whatever one is at Summit when you can make it?

Just looking and Summit has a recurring Friday At The Track (FATT) series that seems exactly what I'm looking for.  There are a few Novice-only sessions, and they even advertise Miata rentals available for some dates.  

I feel like I get way more clear laps in my lower power car around Mosport (fastest track in North America) than the big power cars do, at least in the advanced group with BMW CCA. With lots of power and decent cornering they're catching multiple cars a lap waiting for a point by. I'm out there holding my own through the corners (unless a car on slicks is coming) and generally just giving a nice early point by as the high power cars go by in a blur up the straight. I'll get held up the odd the time waiting for a pass but that's not the end of the world.

The key is for everyone to be aware of what is going on around them and respect each other, sadly that can be a rare thing sometimes.

I find this to be a bigger problem in the more advanced groups than the beginner groups.

As a participant, it can get really tiresome  having to constantly point by other drivers. Or, if you have graduated to the advanced group where you can pass anywhere without a point-by, it can be both scary and frustrating in a low powered car. It's like being in a constant war battle where everyone is shooting at you and you are just trying to survive. When I raced it wasn't nearly as bad because all of us on the track were in classes that mostly ran somewhat similar lap times. Not so in advanced group.

As an instructor who has spent his 'career' piloting cars under 250hp I've become reluctant to be the right seat passenger in a lot of these newer cars. They are very fast and have lots of driver aids that can mask problems until they are too late. It's difficult to reel in a driver who is starting to run too fast for his skill level when the car is telling him everything is fine.

I don't have an answer. I can only say I stopped going to track events a few years ago for the reasons above. 

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I couldn't agree more.  Passing is on the straights with point by only.  Don't worry about someone behind you.  Be aware they are there and when you get to the straights, point them by.  If they're that fast, they should be in a different run group.  

I had my Sentra SE-R Spec V out yesterday with my son driving.  We had a 991 and Huracan in our run group.  We had a great time.

I do all those things. "If they're that fast they should be in a higher run group" doesn't apply when they drive an R8 and have less experience on the same track. Get a bunch of high priced cars with low experience drivers and things can get unmanageable.

Why is it unmanabeable?  I don't mean that sarcastically, genuinely curious what your perspective is.

Sure, newer cars are faster and faster.  Sure, HPDE is becoming more popular...which is a good thing.  If I have an inexperienced driver in a supercar in my run group...or even more than one...they are much more often than not "point and shoot" drivers.  Their car is so much faster than mine down the straight that if I find myself on them in the corner, I'll just back off at the next straight while they floor it (presuming they aren't smart enough to just point me by and stay behind me).  That'll create such a big gap ahead for me that they aren't a problem.  If they're driving dangerously, then I'll stay off the gas for a long while...just once.  That'll give a giant gap and if they do something dumb and crash, they won't take me out.  I'll also go and talk to them between sessions and offer assistance.

I'm diving more and more into right seat instructing...in fact it's how I'm going to make my living now.  If I have a dangerous driver, I'll nip it in the bud at the very first sign.  I'm clear that I need them to follow my instructions.  If they don't, we'll come in and they lose track time.

I'm not denying that it can be a challenge.  Without a doubt it is, I see it.  I also don't personally think it's something that would ever cause me from running and doing my thing.

Huckleberry said:

We have guys who don't want to ride in the right seat with a 1st day student in a car capable of 175 on the straights without roll cages

This is why I quit instructing.  I got one a-hole student in a fast car, who wouldn't listen, and I hung it up.  

The closest thing I've seen to the way HPDEs used to be 20 years ago is SCCA Track Nights.  The big HPDE groups at big tracks are country club events.  Saw a student rent a car with full professional race support for an HPDE weekend, probably 40k+ weekend.

I think there is an opportunity for either a vintage or <300hp HPDE group.

I stopped instructing several years ago.  I had an older guy in a C6 Z06 at PPIR, so think roval with a tight infield.  Very respectful guy, I never felt in jeopardy with him.  He was short shifting at 4500 rpm and lifting at the start/finish line and coasting several seconds before the entrance to the infield.  Even with that, it just felt like we were hauling the mail on the roval.  So I asked him, how fast are we going when you're lifting at start/finish?  Yeah, 145mph.  In a car with stock safety equipment.  That means with an experienced driver like me, I would've been going 165-170mph. 

Um, no.  I don't need to be sitting in the right hand seat doing instructing anymore, just not worth it.

It's been awhile since I've had traffic issues but that's mostly because of my experience level.  At this point I'm out with the very experienced drivers who are very good at watching their mirrors.  I also tend to be on track with the same people and know where to grid myself, so I tend to get lots of clear track time. 

This is mostly an issue in the lower run groups where you can have a lot of disparity not only in driver comfort level but also car capabilities. 

As one of the original posters who still tracks a very stockish 92 miata, I'll say I've rarely had an issue running up the NASA MidAtlantic HPDE ladder and TrackNight events in the advanced group at Dominion/Summit Point/VIR. With NASA, the worst times would be the Sunday morning HPDE 2 newly advance to SOLO drivers back stepping a bit and getting overwhelmed without an instructor.  In the track night groups, at least some folks were hesitant to place themselves in the higher groups so those who were in advanced had pretty good awareness. I am always very generous with point bys and had to make sure to give individual signals to multiple cars. I also offered them possibly a bit late into the braking zones and had a few waved off but other drivers complemented the same move. I'd catch a few folks in the turns and Dominion could get a bit crowded but on the big tracks I'd maybe get held up in 1 section before the fast cars would lose me on the straights (I'm lucky to break ~105 or so anywhere).

The organizations I run with typically pair students up with instructors who drive a similar car. There are still plenty of rookies showing up in Miata's with need for instructors who feel at home in the passenger seat of sub-250hp cars. One of my goals is to instruct and it will likely be limited to  Miata's, E30's, E36's or the like. Which around here make up a huge segment of the track day population. The Porsche guys usually end up instructing the rockets. 

NorseDave said:

Reviving an old thread to see what's changed.

I'd definitely like to start getting out to the track occasionally.  But the HP and speed arms race concerns me - as of now I'd be in either a '88 944S (slow) or a '85 190E (not 16V - VERY slow).  I did a single Intro to HPDE day back like 15 yrs ago with PCA (in the same 944S!) and it was fine, but the fastest cars I remember from that day were 996s.  Which would also be slow now.   That's my only on-track experience.  I did a bit of autocrossing for a few years, and do an electric karting session a couple times a year, so I'm not a total newby, but I may as well be. 

I'm in the DC area.  Seems like advice #1 is to choose a short, technical track with minimal long straights, so Jefferson circuit at Summit Point is a good choice.  Any suggestions, things to avoid, clubs to run with, clubs to avoid, etc. are appreciated!

If you feel like heading north, Im local to NJMP and have been running a 944 in TNiA for a while now. There is always at least one of us 944 people there, sometimes even 3, and once 4! An under 200hp track event would be cool, but we manage with modern traffic just fine. If you are the first one out on the track, yea, youll have to point everyone by, but if you just hold off to be towards the end of the line-up, it will be nearly the end of the session before the leaders catch up to you. TNiA here seems to be more my (our) speed, NASA weekends at the same track have more super speed kind of stuff. I much prefer the less serious, laid back, kind of event. 

Heres 6 minutes of my budget battle box on track without undue conga lines, point-by macarenas, or other low hp shenanigans. Come join us. 

^I want to watch that video, but did you record it on an LSD-soaked potato?

Peanu_Keeyes said:

The organizations I run with typically pair students up with instructors who drive a similar car. There are still plenty of rookies showing up in Miata's with need for instructors who feel at home in the passenger seat of sub-250hp cars. One of my goals is to instruct and it will likely be limited to  Miata's, E30's, E36's or the like. Which around here make up a huge segment of the track day population. The Porsche guys usually end up instructing the rockets. 

I instruct at PCA events and because of what I race I typically get students in low powered cars and I like that. As some of the others have said right seating with a really green driver in a 600hp on a fast track is not for me. Luckily my local tracks are low to medium speed with lots run off room.

Several years back I was instructing at a manufacturer event; John Paul Jr was one of our fellow instructors. He was commenting about being asked to do Viper Club events at Cal Speedway. He thought it was nuts that A. people with no track experience could be out on a high speed track and B. that anyone would climb in the car with them.

Circling back to HPDE participation in higher horsepower cars; the bulk of the events I run are PCA. I like the fact that they remind people that "we are not racing" they are also very particular about what group they will let you run in.

As for bringing a high end car; in my motorcycle days my rider school weekend was at Willow Springs. Two laps in I was bombing through turn 8 car at well over 100mph...............but I was also keenly aware of the fact that I could kill myself if I did something stupid................it's very easy to kid yourself about the lack of danger in a modern sports car.

Basically attitude is everything. I've driven 700-800hp  street cars at HPDEs. I always leave lots of margin on the table . not because they aren't my cars, it's because you arrive at corners much sooner and much faster. A slight bobble at those speeds becomes an issue quickly.

As a side this phenomenon is not particular to just HPDEs: I've seen people show up to SCCA drivers schools in Porsche 934s and Trans-Am cars. Same goes for Vintage; I've seen F5000 & Formula Mazda guys barely turning faster lap times then my F500. 

I'm sure we will be tlaking about this in 7 more years.

GameboyRMH said:

^I want to watch that video, but did you record it on an LSD-soaked potato?

It looks like a hi-8 cam bolted to a headrest to me

I don't remember if I shared the anecdote somewhere in this thread or elsewhere, but the last time I went out to RA in my E46 330 two guys from the Viper Club in the intermediate group had a high-speed incident that ended both of their weekends with cars leaving on a flatbed (people were OK). The paddock scuttlebutt was that the intermediate group with that org was always a bit dicey, I was cleared for it but chose to keep running with the beginner groups as I didn't want to be a rolling chicane in the middle of a 500HP+ vehicle pissing contest.

All of the commentary in this thread (both back when it was originally posted and recently) have definitely taught me to "shop around" for an organization that's a good fit, that's for sure.

GameboyRMH said:

^I want to watch that video, but did you record it on an LSD-soaked potato?

Anything over 10 pixels puts strain on the alternator and robs me of valuable horsepower. 

But in reality, track addict and I get in a fight every session and I still havent figured out how to get it to take acceptable video.