I think Jalopnik is right on the money here - the Washington Post's biggest mistake was doing their "research" exclusively at a cruise in that catered to the nostalgia crowd. Not a test and tune night at a dragstrip, not an autocross, not a show and shine for the stance crowd.
Not really dying, but maybe different than we did it. I know lots of kids that are into the mud stuff and stance.
The problem with what we do is that it has become too illegal to afford. Tickets have become draconian and then the insurance industry cleans the rest of the meat off the bones.
What I do see as going the way off the Dodo is the British car hobby. From a poll done on the MG experience about 75% are over 50 and 65% over 60. The bottom end is NOT filling up despite the odd young newcomer to the board who gets trotted out like the second coming of Jesus. You see the same thing happening in any of the marques that are no longer safe for young kids to drive on today's roads.
logdog wrote:SVreX wrote: As technology advances, it becomes more and more difficult for us to pass on our appreciation for cars to the next generation. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable lifting the hood on most cars built in the last 10 years. American car shows are full of 50 year old technology. Import car shows are full of 30 year old technology. Racing is full of 20 year old technology. Today's cars are not cars. They are computers on 4 wheels. When the software becomes obsolete, they won't even be able to be sitting in museums. How are we going to instill an appreciation of cars in the next generation when most of us don't even know what to do with the next generation of cars?Im pretty sure my dad said the same thing about catalytic converters and throttle body injection when I was a kid.
Yes, I understand.
And yes, I understand many of you think I sound like an old fart.
But the idea of tying every darned part on a car to the VIN makes it tougher and tougher to add anything after market, or utilize junkyard anythings.
The 80's were a time of change that left out many people who didn't want to try something new.
We are now entering an age that will begin locking out anyone who the manufacturers WANT to lock out.
It's pretty hard to diagnose a modern vehicle if you don't have the appropriate code readers. But the next 5-10 years are ushering in matched VINs on pretty much everything.
I am not saying car guys will go away, but I am saying that the manufacturers are very close to succeeding in eliminating the ability for DIYers and independent shops to access the information necessary to continue the hobby well.
It's not open source code stuff. It's is all proprietary, and they will get to do with it as they choose.
We could, for example, lose the ability to install a PNP ECU if the OEM ECU had the ability to recognize the harness it was attached to.
I kind of doubt the manufacturers care very much about continuing to develop an after-market economy. It doesn't benefit them very much. But it IS in their interest to make their product in such a manner as to promote service work for themselves.
So, the after-market economy will gravitate to more and more deconstruction of the newer vehicles as people attempt to disengage them from the OEM nannies.
I realize that is part of the hobby now (programmable management, etc). It just becomes exponentially more difficult with chips attached to every part of the car.
I'll echo what NOHOME wrote, but extend it to all the "affordable classic car" hobby. Stuff like british/italian/french little cars from the 50s to the 70s are going. Even the American car scene is going, but at a slower rate.
I think they are victims of their success. Most of that stuff is much too expensive for what it is. Their values are dictated by rich, rose-tinted glasses wearing, baby-boomers trying to re-live an era that has already past. They is no logic in it.
I would love to own an MGB for example, but when I see that I can own a far superior Miata, in better shape, for less money.....
But the rest of the car hobby is doing great I think. It's just evolving and the older guys aren't keeping up.
"Is the hobby dying?" No, just certain aspects are. There always has been parts growing and parts dying.
Overall are less people interested in cars? Maybe, so what? What do i care if my interests are popular? Really youre a lot better off if less people are into it. Makes buying the cars a lot cheaper if youre the only guy who wants it. You dorks have the right idea wanting weird stuff from the eighties. Aint nobody else competing with you for those cars. Try buying a clean used jeep or diesel pickup. Is that segment of the hobby dying? Nope.
Dear younger person:
I understand that you think I am obsolete and that you are the future.
Please consider when you look at me that I AM YOUR FUTURE. You are not unique. I was once you.
Whether you believe it or not, it may be possible that I picked up a few things through the process that might be important to you, which you have not yet had the opportunity to experience.
You can learn from me or re-live the same mistakes. Your choice.
Mr_Clutch42 wrote: I say that car enthusiasts aren't dwindling, we were always a small part of the population. I think that some of us are more paranoid about it than others.
Yup!
(And yupididit below him)
I think that car enthusiasts are finding it easier to mingle with like-minded people due to all of the technology. As long as we're getting into revisionist history and generalizations -- In the "good old days," everyone had to be on at least the fringe of the car scene because cars were pieces of E36 M3 that needed constant fiddling and wore out like clockwork every 5 years...that's where all that abandoned chrome and glass on the Detroit skyline came from. Now a large segment of the population can spend that time and disposable income on flying their drones or polishing their phones instead of dicking with their cars. And that's okay!
Tyler H wrote: Now a large segment of the population can spend that time and disposable income on flying their drones or polishing their phones instead of dicking with their cars. And that's okay!
interesting that you note that, I replied the Marc, the editor of the article and noted that the automotive culture has changed, but events that tend to attract high end cars, such as cars and coffee type events, have flourished as people attend them to take photos, capture and create their own media. As a bonus, coffee shops have wi-fi (jokes!). Drift events provide other good avenues from filming and gathering media. Someone is more likely to be involved in the car scene now without even having a car that they're even into. They're appreciative of cars, the culture and elements within each leading them to learn about them before engaging in asshattery or poor selections of modifications, late 90s I'm looking at your high school graduates. Wheel to wheel racing is in trouble though. Kids are far more likely to dump $2-3k into a simulator rig to play online versus friends in a safe controlled environment then to prep a car for wheel to wheel that needs to be towed an hour plus each way to run the same track month in, month out and cost a small fortune in consumables in the process.
I've been hearing this same topic for 30 years. We used to discuss it at SCCA meetings in the '80's. I do believe there is a large group of younger people that have no interest in cars, or learning how to drive, but there is also a group that loves cars. It may not be a '55 Belair, but instead a WRX or EVO. I would say the Euro car culture could go away (Triumphs, MGs, Alfas, etc.) as those with interest that lived those times die off, but I think there will always be a percentage of the population that likes cars.
Lets face it, men (and women's) fascination with speed has been here since the dawn of time. Horses, wagons, ships, trains, you name it. People always find a way to go faster or race them. Maybe in the future it won't be cars as we know them, but there will always be something to take their place.
I think the article is by someone with a preconceived idea about what he wanted to say and found people to back it up.
I think the Goodguys traveling hot rod show is in part responsible for the sad situation. They figured out how to take advantage of everyone while making money at it. For example, if you have a classic car and big shiny V8 to show off, you have to send Goodguys ~$50 just to enter and park. Who could ever imagine paying to show off your own car - I mean, you are the attraction, how dare someone make you play, and yet Goodguys figured out that car owners really are that vain that they'll pay people to come look at their cars.
Just want to go and spectate? That's $10 for parking and $20 just to get in.
Are you a vendor? Then it's going to cost you for booth space. Goodguys makes money off of everyone involved in their car shows. They must have a pretty good marketing department because if you listen to the ads, they're "your friends" who just want everyone to come out and have a good time - and spend a fortune.
There's one flaw in their exploitation though: Cars and Coffee. The CC events have done more to get people interested (again) in checking out cars, because the cars are always different (not all shiny chrome V8s) AND no one's getting charged to get in. CC has helped people realize (again) that cars can be so much more than commuter appliances, and that modifying them is fun.
This young kid gets it. Really knows his stuff too. Wise beyond his years.
(NSFW)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mD7o-wVKO9Y
I hope Truck Nuts are a dying breed.
racerdave600 wrote: I think the article is by someone with a preconceived idea about what he wanted to say and found people to back it up.
Is that not how all reporting is done?
As someone who works on modern stuff(everything from BMW to GM and Mazda)... Newer cars are great for diagnosing quickly. Many CANBUS issues with stuff like body modules can still be diagnosed with a DVOM with the right wiring diagram.
Having all info available on a laptop or scan tool is great. Storing codes is even better! Customer complains about misfiring last week but not doing it now... Only to find the P0300 code was stored with 2% fuel level.
The flip side is you get a customer who comes in for a clunk noise over bumps... And they ask you how long it will take to "plug in your computer thingy" so they can get out of there in 30 minutes.
Went on a tangent... I think whoever said the thing about not needing to have a car to interact with others is the best explanation of this I've seen.
I still think the enthusiast segment is big, just more people who don't care about cars at all. Lazy kids playing video games and never leaving their house.
fanfoy wrote: I'll echo what NOHOME wrote, but extend it to all the "affordable classic car" hobby. Stuff like british/italian/french little cars from the 50s to the 70s are going. Even the American car scene is going, but at a slower rate. I think they are victims of their success. Most of that stuff is much too expensive for what it is. Their values are dictated by rich, rose-tinted glasses wearing, baby-boomers trying to re-live an era that has already past. They is no logic in it. I would love to own an MGB for example, but when I see that I can own a far superior Miata, in better shape, for less money..... But the rest of the car hobby is doing great I think. It's just evolving and the older guys aren't keeping up.
There was an interesting poll taken on the MG Experience board. I would say that the sample size is reasonable to make some observations.
What is most telling for me is the fall off of ownership after age 70. That tells me that there are going to be 36 cars available for the two youngest groups to buy. And they are stagnant at 27 units.
So what happens to the market when there is roughly a 30% oversupply of MGBs?
And I am with Fanboy in that I would extend this to all of the popular hobby marques. Too many restored by people who cared, for too small of a buying market who does not know what the fuss was all about.
In reply to NOHOME:
shift that bell curve down 10 years and it's very similar to the patterns i see from club racing organization numbers
I think the issue with club racing is most guys under 30, such as myself, simply can't afford it at this point in their lives. Our local SCCA chapter has quite a large turnout of guys and girls in the under 30 bracket. I think its safe to assume most of them have at least some interest in club racing/track day events, and a significant percentage will progress to those types of events as finances permit.
As far as classics are concerned, as others have mentioned, nostalgia plays a huge part. Its all about what was cool when the now 50-70 year old guys, who are retiring or going through their midlife crises and have money to spend, were in their teens and 20s. Its an ever shifting bubble that just happens to center around 60s to 70s sporty cars and muscle cars at the moment. Eventually, the bubble will burst on these particular cars and move elsewhere. I have to imagine the pre-war classics have already witnessed this phenomenon and it would be interesting to look at a timeline of inflation adjusted values for these cars.
Muscle cars I think will always have a following to some degree, as they still carry quite a bit of mystique amongst even fringe car guys around my age. I think there's a perception that we missed out on the "good ol' days" and a desire to recapture that for ourselves, albeit in a rather artificial fashion. The "Hipster Movement" is an embodiment of that in a lot of ways, as a much of the look centers on having to have cool vintage E36 M3 of one sort or another. I don't know how much staying power there is to any of this, but as muscle car prices normalize eventually, I think you will see more younger guys scooping them up. The Euro stuff, on the other hand, concerns me a bit.
captdownshift wrote: In reply to NOHOME: shift that bell curve down 10 years and it's very similar to the patterns i see from club racing organization numbers
Club racing spent itself into that demographic. Almost nobody tows a car on an open trailer to a club race and then camps next to it anymore. Club racing got all gentrified over the last 20 years and left the back gate open for Lemons and Chump to move in. One of the most boneheaded things SCCA and NASA ever did.
I don't buy that the car scene is dying, as far as hobbyists go. While the internet/social media has certainly changed the views and ways of younger enthisiasts, its also brought even more people together. When I was in high school, there was a TINY handful of others into cars, so that's who I had to talk to, and each person had their own likes or interests (trucks vs cars, domestics vs imports, etc). Nowadays, hop online and you're instantly connected to any forum filled with enthusiasts that have views as broad as yours (ie GRM) or as focused (ie e46fanatics). Sure it's not as fun or as authentic as being in person (though a lot of the forums have local meets), but it has provided a ton of helpful information, feedback, and laughs for enthusiasts. So, I don't see the trends of social media as being a negative, nor a contributing factor to a hobby dying (which is clearly not).
Dusterbd13 wrote: My niece is 15. She brags about welding the floor patches in her truck. Yeah, kids are different from when we grew up, but the car culture ain't dying. May not be as popular anymore, but I have hope.
Your niece is rad. 
Good for her.
In reply to gamby:
NOHOME wrote:fanfoy wrote: I'll echo what NOHOME wrote, but extend it to all the "affordable classic car" hobby. Stuff like british/italian/french little cars from the 50s to the 70s are going. Even the American car scene is going, but at a slower rate. I think they are victims of their success. Most of that stuff is much too expensive for what it is. Their values are dictated by rich, rose-tinted glasses wearing, baby-boomers trying to re-live an era that has already past. They is no logic in it. I would love to own an MGB for example, but when I see that I can own a far superior Miata, in better shape, for less money..... But the rest of the car hobby is doing great I think. It's just evolving and the older guys aren't keeping up.There was an interesting poll taken on the MG Experience board. I would say that the sample size is reasonable to make some observations.
The fall off age of life is around 70 too
I don't think we're a dying breed. They just don't know about us because they interviewed people at the wrong venue like they did in the article.
The car hobby is dying? I'd argue that it's bigger now than ever.
While the traditional fairground car show "sit in the lawn chair and polish the chrome" car guys may be dwindling off a bit, car culture is surviving in many other ways. Cars are all over social media, traditional media, and more. There are more racing events and car meets/shows for the Average Joe to attend and participate in now than there were 20-30 years ago. There are car clubs and organizations all over the place that didn't exist 10 years ago, mainly thanks to the internet. Facebook, while viewed as The Great Satan by some people, is great for this. I'm in a number of large groups on there, and some have a cult-like following and grow larger by the week.
When someone does something "cool", it's 10 seconds away from being broadcast over the world, and copycats can view a forum post or videos that will help them do the same thing. Whenever a trend appears, for better or worse, everyone knows in a couple days' time. It's incredible.
While print media has been on the decline, magazines like GRM (of course!), Hot Rod, and Hemmings are still going strong, and each has an online component that spreads the word further and faster. I write for a blog now, and I've seen our reader base grow through social media "likes" and web traffic, even since I started earlier this year. I'm seeing a lot of younger guys get into it too. It's definitely not just an old folks hobby.
Now, since I'm a car guy, I have a general awareness of what's going on in the car culture, but the general public doesn't. Why? Because that's the way society is today; it's the message that the popular media conveys. General apathy for many things is just the way of the world now; people can't be bothered. Look at the music world, for example. There's a lot of people that think music is dead. That's because they are not looking in the right places. Yes, the internet did have a great effect on the rock stars and pop stars of old, and some argue that the album format is on the way out. If you look under the surface, it's still there and thriving.
The issue here is that the internet and social media has basically compartmentalized what people like and don't like, and made it easy to forget that things that everyone used to be aware of still exist. If the sheep don't "like" something on your social media feed, they may not see it. That doesn't mean it's dying or dead!
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