No special sporting purposes, just something semi-interesting neither of which I have any ownership experience with.
No special sporting purposes, just something semi-interesting neither of which I have any ownership experience with.
Audi - higher maintenance costs, generally difficult to find in good shape without a long list of deffered maintenance items that need attention.
Subaru - prone to rust, good parts availability, easier to work on.
What model year? 2020?
In reply to JesseWolfe :
Rust is a concern. And I heard, probably here, that Audi’s aren’t as rust-prone as the Subaru’s.
I feel like Audi’s don’t have that one oft-related issue like the Subaru has with headgaskets. Meaning, I can’t think of that major thing that seems to be inseparable from the marque with the Audi.
I know the suspension bushings are a PITA with the Audi.
b13990 said:What model year? 2020?
It’s in the title. (say, 2005)
In reply to ebonyandivory :
How did I miss that? Duh.
Supposedly Audi was already doing the CVT thing in 2005. If you can avoid that and get a real automatic (or an actual frickin' stickshift) that's tempting.
Both of those cars are nice-looking, although the Outback looks better to me. It's kind of a classic design.
What you said about head gaskets-vs.-everything seems accurate. With the Subaru, you kind of know what might break. With the Audi, that's not quite as true... unless you get one with the disposable transmission.
JesseWolfe said:Audi - higher maintenance costs, generally difficult to find in good shape without a long list of deffered maintenance items that need attention.
Subaru - prone to rust, good parts availability, easier to work on.
I'm on my 3rd Subaru. My 98 Legacy L has been trouble free outside normal maintenance. 03 Outback got head gaskets. 04 Forester XT broke a cam. The 05 generation and newer like you are asking about are significantly less prone to head gasket issues like the 04 and older 2.5 SOHC.
I think of a Subaru and know I can fix most issues easily. Not so much an Audi someone else has beat on for 150k miles.
As somebody who owned an 04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8T, I say go for it. I bought the proverbial one that everyone says not to, high miles with no maintenance records.
I did plugs, a turbo hose, and fluid changes, then sold it to my next door neighbor. He's done a window regulator and tires. It hasn't been any more maintenance intensive than any of the other 9 cars we collectively own.
I replaced it with a 2006 Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T in the same condition. This one we've done plugs, coil packs, fluid changes, and front brake pads. Oh, and a gas cap.
One thing I will say, both have significantly more power than a NA Subaru, and both are manuals. The 6-speeds in both of them are just honeys of a transaxle.
You'd be crazy to buy a slower car that will need an engine out head gasket job as routine maintenance over either of these.
The 1.8 in the Audi is a pretty good engine with great parts availability and I would trust it to be as reliable as any Subaru built at the time. If I could find a clean Audi I'd go with that over the Subaru, IMO it's a much nicer car.
People saying Subaru had gasket issues in 2009 or even 2005 set off my B.S. meter. Anecdotes and guilt-by-association go a long way, I guess.
There are online sources that say Imprezas were affected as late as 2010, Foresters as late as 2011... model years that don't seem to correspond to anything at all, so far as I can tell. I drove a 2009 Impreza for 10+ years myself and never really gave head gaskets a second thought.
In reply to b13990 :
Subarus have head gasket problems through 2019...
b13990 said:In reply to ebonyandivory :
How did I miss that? Duh.
Supposedly Audi was already doing the CVT thing in 2005. If you can avoid that and get a real automatic (or an actual frickin' stickshift) that's tempting.
With the Audi, that's not quite as true... unless you get one with the disposable transmission.
Also in the title: (manuals only)
So, no CVT’s for me
In reply to Javelin :
I must say, (I’m biased) I like what you’re saying here!
I always found the Audi to be a much better drive. The outback never once said sporting to me at all. My GSW 4 motion drives 100% better than my mom's 2019 legacy. I always liked the Audi of that era as a drivers car. I only like the outback if you are going to hit up the fire roads and forest roads.
The 2001 Outback 5-speed has got to be one of the least satisfying cars to drive that I have ever owned. I doubt they fixed that by 2005. Don't do that to yourself. You deserve better. Get the Audi.
And oh yeah, blown head gaskets.
My friend has been mucking with 1.8t cars for a long time. He has been bugging me to build one. He said 350 - 400 HP is no big deal. Not cheep but there are proven recipes at this point and you have one hell of a fun skate board.
I really enjoyed my 2006 Outback XT. Same model, but turbo and automatic. But when it burned a valve that required removing the engine to even properly diagnose let alone repair, I was done.
It's for sale in Ohio if you're interested...
05 Audi is not the best looking of the Audi car line. Looks to much like the a6 of the time. That being said both can be made to handle and go fast. It all depends on how much you want to spend. If l was looking in that era a S4 would be my go to car. Yes gas mileage will be less but for the initial cost you get much more car for the money. Having a 98.5 A4 that I inherited from my brother when he moved to Japan it's my 5th or 6th Audi. Mostly Quattro a couple front drive coupes. They all have some of the most solid sounding doors when shutting them and they feel heavier when at speed than the Subaru. Doesn't mean they can't handle they jyy it at feel solid. Having had a 01 S8 now that was a fun car. Way more capable than the size indicates. The only thing l didn't work on was when l needed to rebuild the autotragic we got in the us. If you're going to be working on either one you will get the better bag for the buck with the Audi.
Well apparently I have some opinions, because this got rather long fairly quickly. I've owned / driven / worked on multiple A4s and Subarus, some direct ownership, some through my family. I'm not counting the other Audis my godfather has had with the 2.8l V6 here. For a daily driver, I'd happily own either any GC or GD Impreza, SF Forester, a 2000-2004 Outback (or Baja!), or any B5 or B6 Audi based on my previous experiences. I'd probably prioritize them exactly in reverse order, with caveats about maintenance and location (I live in Western MA now, grew up near Albany, NY).
Subarus:
2000 Outback, 2.5 NA with 5 spd -- Parents car. Was on it's 3rd engine and had 260k when I learned to drive on it and totaled it by hydroplaning into a guardrail at 16. Parted it out to much success.
2003 Outback LL Bean, 3.0 six with 4spd auto -- Got it for free-fiddy, thrashed and parted due to needing a steering rack and wanting to use the engine in a swap.
2007 Outback, 2.5 NA / 5spd -- Parents car, sold in order to purchase the XT.
2005 Outback XT, 2.5 Turbo / 5spd -- Shockingly quick, in acceleration and time to breakage. Munched the center diff, sold to a mechanic.
Audis:
2001 A4 1.8T 5spd -- Parents car, owned for several years, totaled by a utility truck to the rear.
2003 A4 1.8T 5spd, mods -- A dumb purchase of someone else's mods, owned for 6mo. Top mount GT3071R with screamer pipe, lowered, bad paint, etc...
2004 A4 1.8T 6spd -- Parents car, replacing the '01 A4. Had it for 5+ years, 70k+ miles, autocrossed.
Driving: The two cars do different jobs, is the way I'd put it. If I'm driving for more than an hour, and primarily on tarmac, the Audi is almost always preferable, especially with the 6spd. I drove solo (with passenger) down to NC and back for a weekend, the sort of trip that's made possible by having the Audi over the Subaru. Sure, you could do it -- but you would get tired a lot faster due to the increased wind noise, engine noise, and steering precision. The 6spd A4 is notably more refined than the 5spd as well here. The Subaru is geared short, which makes it fun on a rally cross course and windy roads, but not so great on the highway. I also can't say enough good things about the front suspension on the B5/B6 chassis cars. Audi has the inverse problem of 911s, with the entire engine being in front of the front axle, and the 8 front control arms work to solve that as much as possible simply by doing a better job keeping the tire in contact with the road by manipulating camber and castor with bump and steering angle. It still gives the front tires a workout, but feels better when driven quickly. The Subaru has the advantage in snowy conditions and off road driving due to having more ground clearance, shorter gearing, and more sidewall stock. With snow tires on both cars in upstate NY, you had to really try to get any of our Outbacks stuck, whereas the Audi got stuck getting into an unshoveled driveway a couple times. The Subaru is not fast, unless it's the XT version (The H6 was quick, but hampered by the autotragic. It was fun in a similar way to driving my roommate's Buick LeSabre quickly, but it actually would go around corners about as well as the H4 Outback). The XT got the 2.5l WRX engine, which makes gobs of torque. It also takes premium and gets worse mileage than the Audi. And doesn't go around corners as well, which kind of defeats the point of having all the power. The TL;DR here is that the Subaru is fun to thrash in short bursts, and the Audi is fun to tour in.
Maintenance:
Subaru: We never had a head gasket failure on any of the cars listed. My parents did kill 2 NA EJ25s by not checking the oil though, because they do burn / leak it easily. So expect to check the oil every fill up (no, really) just to be sure. It's a lot easier than even the easy swap that Subarus are. I have read a theory that ties the head gasket issues to poor block grounds causing current to flow through the coolant which turns it acidic which in turn eats through the gaskets... Whether that's true or not, the gasket issues are real but definitely over hyped. Even my brother's car, which has had it diagnosed, is merely because it's externally leaking oil. At the age these cars are, an oil weep isn't an immediate fix type of deal. On the other hand, the spark plug jobs on DOHC Subarus are HELL. It's at least 2 hours of contorting your hand and using every combination of 3/8" extensions and ball joints to try to get the plugs in and out. Fortunately they are Iridium plugs with 60k+ lifespans, because Subaru knew how hellish this would be. I did it on the XT due to a misfire because they weren't changed. Speaking of, those early 2.5l turbos don't have the same ring land problems of the later STI motors, instead they have weird banjo bolt filters on the oil line to the turbo. These filters over time can clog, starving the bearings in the turbo, which then shred their misery into the rest of the engine. Additionally, the exhaust wheels in the turbos can be damaged by the pre-cats breaking up and sending shrapnel downstream (yep, pre-turbo pre-cats in the up-pipe) into the turbo. The rear suspension on the 2005-2007 Outbacks is different from the 2000-2004 models, and is worse. It provides poor toe control especially as it ages, producing "ghost-walking". There are various theories and debates on how serious this is (some owners have reported scary experiences, others have said their car drives fine), but after driving both I wouldn't own an Outback newer than 2004. I'd recommend test driving both, especially up to highway speeds, and see how you feel about them. Other things: The shifter bushings wear. I like the sloppy shifter out of nostalgia, but you can also make it incredible tight and notchy if you'd prefer. Don't expect Miata like feel, but it's no truck either. You'll want OEM axles, the aftermarket ones are spotty at sealing and can lead to wheel bearing failures. They are timing belts, as always make sure to do them on time and with quality parts. The rear subframes will rot out on the 2000-2004, as will the rear quarters. I also see a lot of Subarus on craigslist needing catalytic converters -- I suspect it's related to the oil burning. Be aware of your emissions requirements, up until at least 2004 Subaru made California cars with different, more expensive cats.
Audi: There aren't a lot of big issues, but a lot of small things than can grow into big ones (in other words, it's German). Being longitudinal, and a little later, these should be post sludge kit, but beware on the 1.8Ts of oil changes and sludge buildup due to the heat from the turbo (but be glad you don't have the headaches of the early 2.0T). There really shouldn't be any issues with this by now, but they are a bit more sensitive to oil and interval than, say, an NA Subaru. The turbo itself is a stout little K03, and can be upgraded to a K04 without opening the block (internals seem to be agreed upon to be good for ~300hp before rods start flying). We did have an issue with our first A4 of the plastic impeller on the water pump coming apart and sending shrapnel through the entire cooling system, resulting in an unplanned timing belt, water pump, and heater core job. This is the sort of maintenance that is in some ways preferable to plan to do yourself right off the bat when purchasing either of these vehicles, in order to use the correct metal impeller part. There is a plastic water adapter on the back of the head that can let go in old age; this is not fun and can lead to head damage quickly. Also in the head is the variable valve timing solenoid, an oil driven chain tensioner in the back of the head on the chain between the cams. Clever design, but the plastic on the tensioner can wear out at high mileage, and sludge can gunk up the smaller passages. It's a tedious but not difficult job to replace, just due to lifting the cams. The coils like to let go sometimes due to age and heat, but we only had one go that I can recall. The multi-link front suspension is more expensive to replace than it's basic counterparts, and must be torqued with the wheel loaded. Additionally, due to the arms being aluminum, galvanic corrosion can make removal difficult. The dual flywheel is a dual mass, and while I haven't heard of failures at stock power, it was recommended to convert when the clutch eventually wore out. The window regulators are annoying, and will fail. The wiper linkage may pack up due to lack of grease.
In terms of access, with the special bolts you can slide the entire front clip out to put it in service position. With the Subaru, you pull the engine. Subaru puts the steering rack underneath the transmission, easy to access on a lift, and closer to salt to corrode it. Audi puts the steering rack above the transmission, but allows you to pull it out through access holes. There are inverse hex head and the occasional torx bolt scattered around on the Audi. There may be a triple square in a couple spots, but I think they moved away from that since the '80s. The bodies are galvanized and well put together, something Subaru took longer to figure out. The clear coat still peels on the red ones. The front fenders will rust cosmetically, and maybe the doors. Electrically, the sunroof switches get flaky and the displays for the radio and cluster may lose lines of pixels. But hey, you have a sunroof!
TL;DR: For many reasons, you probably want the Audi.
In reply to MrRobogoat :
Could you please elaborate?
(seriously, thanks for the write up!)
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