BMW rear subframe failure question

When I brought my 330Ci to RRT for shocks/springs installation I asked them to check the rear subframe and upon inspection they told me that there's a tear in my rear subframe. It's a small tear and they can weld it for $1,200. Because of this I postponed the shocks/springs install for now.

What are the symptoms of torn/bad/failed rear subframe? I don't have any driveability problems whatsoever, the car drives smoothly (it's a 2001 w/ 83kmile) and when I lifted the car to install new rear and front sway bars myself I didn't see any tear in the rear subframe (there is a possibility I didn't know what to look for). Any body here have had this problem before? Any info is appreciated. I can find tons of info on other bimmer fanboi website but I want to get informed info from the folks here. Thanks in advance.

$1200? To weld a small spot?

I would think you could buy a NEW subframe for less than that.

Get a second opinion. Snake oil comes in many sizes.

You can buy a new subframe for $1200, you can also buy a welder and take a class for that money.

It isn't usually the subframe that tears, its where it mounts to the unibody. The fix is to take a piece of sheet metal and reinforce the area. The $1200 is probably the price to disassemble the rear end, prep and fabricate at the area, etc... then put it all back.

The other place that tears is the swaybar mount - in the case where you might have put a big bar back there. That should be about $20 to fix.

it's a well known problem.. it's also well known that BMW denies it is a problem.

Andn yes, most of that cost is disassembling the rear, welding it up, cleaning it up and keeping it corrosion free, and putting the car back together.

Might as well have them install the suspension while they are back there, it will be worth the time and money whole everything is apart

There's got to be a fellow GRMer near Alexandria that will work for beer and nachos....

mad_machine wrote: it's a well known problem.. it's also well known that BMW denies it is a problem.

Good thing we never have anything to complain about BMW's quality, eh? Or their reaction to well known, and very, very serious problems...

Can't say bad things about the Werks....

E

The symptoms are popping in the rear of the car under hard accel or decel as the torn part of the unibody moves against itself; it has to be fairly bad to get to that point though. Look carefully around where the subframe mounts to the car and you should see any damage that's there. FWIW it's a very common problem that BMW doesn't want to acknowledge, but it doesn't affect every car. My '99 328i had 168k miles on it when I sold it and I used it hard, and the subframe mount areas were fine. The diff mounting bushings on the other hand were shot and allowed a fair amount of movement back there, making clunking sounds.

Repairing the tears and welding in the reinforcements is something that can be done at home, but it's a lot of work. The gas tank and exhaust have to be dropped, then the rear subframe dropped, the trunk pulled apart and IIRC access holes cut into the trunk. Lots of labor cost there; I seem to recall that $1200 is well within the ballpark for a shop to have it done. If you do have the work done, have every bushing back there replaced, including the diff mounts and the rear trailing arm bushings. 90% of the labor is already done to drop the subframe and rear suspension, R&Ring a couple sets of bushings should only be a marginal increase in the total cost.

RRT is a good shop. Costy, but good. Have them install the reenforcement so you're not doing it again.

pigeon wrote: The symptoms are popping in the rear of the car under hard accel or decel as the torn part of the unibody moves against itself; it has to be fairly bad to get to that point though. Look carefully around where the subframe mounts to the car and you should see any damage that's there.

I'll take a closer look at the subframe mounts. Since I have none of the symptoms I am not sure if I even have this problem. If I do, is it worth my time trying to get BMW to cover/fix this problem?

Pardon my ignorance, but what chassis is this? My local dealer has a stack of floorpans to do BMW funded repairs to E46's that may be under one of those 'silent recall' programs.

ddavidv wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what chassis is this? My local dealer has a stack of floorpans to do BMW funded repairs to E46's that may be under one of those 'silent recall' programs.

It is E46. Do you work for that BMW dealer or do you just happen to notice this?

330ci.. probably an e46.

the E36 had the same problem.. but they are basically the same car with different sheetmetal

ddavidv wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what chassis is this? My local dealer has a stack of floorpans to do BMW funded repairs to E46's that may be under one of those 'silent recall' programs.

Really? A serious safety problem like this is a silent recall??? That's pretty nuts. This should be headline news, like beef recalls or "potential oil leaks" that could (but probably not) cause a fire.

If this is ignored, it would be instant crash.

E-

Someone leaks out a 28,000 car recall regarding Jetta CV bolts and I get 31,000 calls regarding their car being a deathtrap, BMW BUILDS DEATHTRAPS (kidding) and they keep this QUIET?

Interesting topic, the subframe faliure issue is quite well known on both the E36 and the E46 (including the M3) and to an extent even the E30s tore some bits but I think just the sway bar mounts. I had my subframe welded when I bought my E36 about 4 years ago with the intention that it'll see a lot of track duty. It didn't. But recently I noticed the 'machine-gun-fire' like sound under hard acceleration coming from under the back seat. The first thing that crossed my mind was the subframe has cracked but it has the gussets/plates welded so I really doubt that a street driven car tore through those. My second thought was cv joints or because it started recently I have a new set of the cheaper Kumho ASX tires that are probably breaking traction (open diff).

I have seen videos of how bad it can be.. with the rear wheels off of the ground and the car accelerating, you can see large sections of the rear floor moving where the metal actually ripped away.

The problem with the E36 (and e46) is that it was the first BMW built using cad/cam where the engineers knew exactly how much metal they needed to support everything.. it also meant the accountants knew exactly how much metal was needed too.

I'm pretty surprised that the NHTSA hasn't gotten involved in a forced recall. Seriously.

Especially if the problem is that well known. Owners should NOT have to pay for this, BMW should.

E-

alfadriver wrote: I'm pretty surprised that the NHTSA hasn't gotten involved in a forced recall. Seriously. Especially if the problem is that well known. Owners should NOT have to pay for this, BMW should. E-

I couldn't agree more but from reading on some other bimmer specific forum, not all cases of torn rear subframe are covered by BMW.

ea_sport wrote: It is E46. Do you work for that BMW dealer or do you just happen to notice this?

Other than this week, I'm usually in that body shop one day a week. The parts guy and I used to work together, and one of the estimators is a car geek like me. It just sort of came up in conversation one day when I asked "what are all those floorpans for?"

here is a bad case.

bimmerforums E36 floor repair

"I was driving sideways like an assbag on a public road and now my car is falling apart, boo hoo"

Does anyone else feel this is ALMOST poetic in it's application of justice?

There were plenty of people that this happened to that weren't driving like assbags on public roads.

I had my 00 323ci repaired for free by grand blanc bmw, they sent it to autometric collision in Sylvan Lake Mich, because it was the closest body shop BMW trusted. Anyways you need to get it inspected by the dealer and they will determine if theyll do it for free. It sounds to me like the more this goes on, the more willing they are to replace them.

BTW: This was last year that i had my 00 323ci w 115k on it repaired. I also made sure my car was as close t ostock as possible and everything in perfect working order before taking it in, Ive heard of them blaming it on aftermarket parts, but we know thats not the problem. You need to check out e46fanatics.com and find the thread about this, its years old and will have all the info you need. But I just made an appt with BMW and had it inspected. Silent recall is exactly what it is.

I wonder if I can get a non recalled bimmer on the cheap, and have it repaired?