Boring cars! Learn me appliance sedans (Lexus ES, Avalon)

My family is growing! Which is wonderful, but I can't make another Miata work. Much less the E30 and Festiva I currently own. 

I am going to busy the next 6 months and will not have a ton of time to wrench. 

Gonna go look at the most boring car I've ever test driven, a 2004 Avalon.

It looks sorta nice, and seems to have a lot of room. Owner has clearly taken good care of it. Is there anything I need to know about them?

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/2004-toyota-avalon-xl-leather/6632165190.html

There's also this Lexus ES, only 51k! Going to look at that as well. 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/1998-lexus-es-sedan-fully/6633233093.html

What tends to fail on these? And am I missing a car I should be looking at? I would like to get a first-gen Mazda 6 but they are usually trashed and hard to find. 

Avalon, Camry, ES300 are all off the same chassis.  However, the Avalon is the stretched version of the chassis so it will be a little longer and have more rear seat leg room than the Camry/ES300.  The V6 3.0L engine is identical in all 3.  Good engine but it does not like neglect of oil change and some are known to "sludge" up. 

The Avalon show is the low option model.  XL=low model.  XLS=high model.  The biggest difference of high or low is that the XL shown has the bench seat with fold down center arm rest.  This gives you a steering column mounted shift lever.  If it had the buckets then it would have a center console with the trans shifter in the center console.  I'm not kidding when I say that the Avalon is the nicest Buick LeSabre that Toyota ever built.  

The ES300 of course is the one and only way...pretty well loaded.  

If you do not need the slightly larger rear of the Avalon, I think in these two choices I might be swayed to the ES300.     

I have this '02 Avalon

Parts are inexpensive and everywhere.  Most things mechanical are shared with the Camry so this means that when you try to get parts from the O'vanceZone stores, they actually have the part in stock!  If used parts, every junkyard has more then one on site.  

There does seem to be an interesting phenomena where Avalons are listed for sale cheaper than comparable Camrys.  Some of this seems to also be that 4cyl Camrys are really the hottest and most desirable on the used market but the Avalon only came with the 6 cyl.  If you can find a one owner Avalon, it is typical that this sensible owner (who bought a sensible car) was pretty good at maintaining it.  

I bought my Avalon in the 160k range and it now has 200k.  One current issue I have is that the CEL is on for bad knock sensor.  The car drives fine, just CEL always on.  The location of the knock sensor is deep in the valley of the V of the engine so to get to this requires a lot to be removed.  It is a job I am not looking forward to (either doing or paying)

Learned earlier this year that, fo some dang reason, Avalons are worth maybe half of what Camrys are despite largely being long, wide Camrys.

Thanks for the info John!

I don't really need the extra room. I haven't had a mid-sized car... ever, so I think the ES will feel plenty big. My only concern with the Lexus is that it's been sitting without any maintenance (oil change and otherwise) for so long. But, it feels weird paying MORE for a car with double the miles, even if it's well cared-for and is 6 years newer. 

I'm going to drive them both, so that will tell me a lot. I'll look for the usual things, and engine sludge under the cap. 

Find a rear facing car seat, and take it with you when you go shopping. Place it where it would be when installed and see how well you'd fit with the giant seat installed behind you. You might reconsider how much value you place on rear seat leg room after that test.

The older Toyota 1MZ V6s are non-interference.  When they introduced VVT-i, they became interference, so check for documented timing belt maintenance or use it as a negotiation tactic.

Tyler H said:

The older Toyota 1MZ V6s are non-interference.  When they introduced VVT-i, they became interference, so check for documented timing belt maintenance or use it as a negotiation tactic.

What model year did they start the VVT-i?

drainoil said:

Tyler H said:

The older Toyota 1MZ V6s are non-interference.  When they introduced VVT-i, they became interference, so check for documented timing belt maintenance or use it as a negotiation tactic.

What model year did they start the VVT-i?

Back in the 1900's.  I think by 2000 they were all VVT-i.

I believe it is actually in 01.  My 02 has it.  

I concur on the rear facing car seat trick.  Avalon is tight (my 02 doesn't have LATCH either), i can't imagine what it would be like with less legroom.  

I've had my 02 since 2012/69k.  Now at 135k miles.  Mixed city/highway gets me 23.5+ mpg on regular.  Long highway runs on cruise at 79 with the ac still pulls down 27-28.  

Valve cover gaskets can leak.  Front one is easy, rear one requires removal of the intake manifold.  Do plugs at the same time.  TIming belt and water pump are pretty straightforward, and shoudl be done on both cars you listed.  You need a puller to get the crank pulley off.  The torque spec on the bolt is pretty high.

Axle torque spec is very high (250ft-lbs or so), keep that in mind if you have to replace them or wheel bearings.  Speaking of wheel bearings, mine are starting to make some noise front and rear.  Rears are easy, fronts need to be pressed in and out.

Struts was a 2 day job on my own in the driveway.  Rear seatbelt bolts were galled so I couldn't get the seatback off at first to access the rear towers.  Engine mounts were due for replacing at around 120k.  

Trans and final drive housing both have drain plugs.  Mine takes about 3.25qts of MaxLife ATF to refill when I dump both.  I do it once a year.  

It's been dead nuts so far.  First non-scheduled problem/fix I just had to do over the weekend.  The rear upstream O2 sensor set off a CEL.  That's literally it in 6+ years and 60+k miles.

My Mother had an Avalon, that was unfortunately destroyed in a wreck.  (Mom was Ok though!)  

John is right-on saying the Avalon is the best Buick LeSabre ever built.  Big, comfy, well-built and efficient---- there isn't really anything not to like about them.  Yeah they have boring styling, a weird dashboard, and uninspiring dynamics, but for a reliable family car, they are hard to beat. 

Mom's had the JBL stereo which rocked out pretty well.   The back seat was limosine-like--- just huge and comfy.  

Her's was flawless until it met it's demise.  She still misses it, and much preferred the Avalon to the 04 Hyundai Azera she has now.    

Thanks everyone! Sounds like the Avalon will have the interference engine, and the ES will not. Good to know. 

I'm not TOO worried about the rear-facing seat since my wife is only 5'3", but it's something to consider. 

You think the ES with only 51k needs a timing belt and water pump?

That Avalon has the WP and TB done, which is nice, but it has so many more miles. Hmmm. I like the IDEA of the Avalon more, with the extra space, but we'll see how they drive and how well they've been cared for. 

The ES 300 just sold, missed it!

But just found another 1 owner Avalon! Older adults rock!

A '99 with 93k and maintenance records for $3300.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/1999-toyota-avalon-low/6626830061.html

Is ABS standard on the Avalon?

John Welsh said:

The biggest difference of high or low is that the XL shown has the bench seat with fold down center arm rest.  This gives you a steering column mounted shift lever. 

Does that mean you get 3 seats up front?

The '99 looks nice.  Different body than the '04 but it's a nice body.  Not quite as big as the '04 but still bigger (only slightly) than the Camry of '99

Enyar said:

John Welsh said:

The biggest difference of high or low is that the XL shown has the bench seat with fold down center arm rest.  This gives you a steering column mounted shift lever. 

Does that mean you get 3 seats up front?

Yep. Marketed as a 6 seater (but would be tight for 6)  My guess is it was more done to attract the "traditional buyers" who had bought Impala, Lesabre, Grand Marques in the past. 

Check out retirement areas for these cars.  A fly-in, drive home may not be a bad idea-- depending on where you are from.   Wealthy retirement communities are full of cars like this----- always well cared for, always garaged, always taken to the same dealer for service, etc. 

I'd look in the Ocala FL area (The Villages--- over 100K person retirement community), also in Ponte Vedra Beach (wealthy area just South of Jacksonville) and over on the West Coast of Florida too---- tons and tons of retirees over there.   Miami / Boca also have lots of retirement communities, but the extreme sun, and heavy traffic can take their toll on cars from down there.   S. Florida is also full of shysters......so I'd beware.   Orlando is hit-or miss, as many larger metropolitan areas are.  

I''m pretty sure no one under the age of 60 ever bought an Avalon new---- which makes them fantastic machines to buy now.  

Don't forget the Hyundai Azera. Only thing that depreciated faster than an avalon. Great cars. 

Avalons are either blue-hair-owned creampuffs or they're straight outta the ghetto.  They don't seem to have a lot of range in between.  

I find them very comfortable and oddly satisfying to drive -- in a soul-sucking appliance kind of way.  Toyota has mastered removing all the sensations of car ownership and driving from the car ownership and driving experience.  

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the art of driving slow in the left lane....except they can actually be fairly quick.  The later ones with the 2GR V6s especially.

the 99 posted is a base model, cloth seats and no jbl sound, but otherwise looks very well maintained and cared for.  if you aren't worried about the amenities, you could do much worse.  i'd be an 'in a heartbeat' buyer at $2500.

to me, you change the timing belt like you would if you just bought a miata.  It may be within mileage range, but it's cheap insurance.  When i buy used cars, i dump every fluid, every filter, change the hoses and wipers and brakes, and belts, pretty much anything i can, unless it has literally just been replaced to sell the car.  I give the car a good thorough hand-wash and shampoo the upholstery. 

2 reasons: i don't trust used car sellers further than i can throw them, and it's cheap insurance against a stupid tow bill or repair job.  plus, i get to bond with the new car, and i'm weird like that, but feel it makes the relationship work better.  

also, performance parts from 99-03 Solaras bolt on.  poly bushings, brakes, etc.  They had an upper strut brace from the factory.  sport springs and shocks fit from a Camry Solara, ES300 (97-01) , Tokico makes the best off the shelf dampers for them.  

if you were lucky and handy, you could buy a TRD supercharger meant for a camry and make it work (though i've heard conflicting info about whether they work with the VVTi engines.  The throttle bodies on VVTi engines were different...2 inlets vs 1)

In reply to bobzilla :

The Azera is a nice car---- especially after the recent re-design.  The older one is meh.   My Mom replaced her Avalon with one, but  the Hyundai lacks refinement, space, is no more efficient,   It's overall been a decent car, but little things are going wrong at only 60K very well-cared for miles.  Seat memory switch went bad, passenger power seat controls went bad, the center console squeaks whenever touched in the most annoying way possible / etc.    Again, not a bad choice, but no where near as solid feeling and well built as the Toyota.

That said, I'm sure the post 2011 Azera is a much nicer car----as all Hyundai cars get much better and better with each passing generation.  

Yeah, the early Avalon competitors (anyone remember the XG300/350 too? Hmmm) were a little under par. Nowadays i think they might be better. The Kia Cadenza is really nice!!

I've done a lot of work on the basic car you're talking about and i like them. They're pretty dang reliable and not bad to work on. I...cant not recommend an Avalon.