brake pad thoughts

See previous post about Roebling Road

So after I buy the new tires I'm thinking of getting carbotech pads for the brakes. Much head scratching and hem hawing has led me to throw up my hands and decide on a set of Carbotech XP8's for the front and Carbotech 1521's for the rear. I don't have abs, so this seems like the best compromise. My thought is that I can get by with the XP8's until I get a chance to buy a set of 1521's for the front as the autox / street setup. Saving the xp8 for track days. 5x racing has them for the standard price, but with free shipping. And they had centric rotors for $19 rear and $23 front but the shipping was going to be $21.

I could do the same with the Hawk HPS and HPS+ but my last instructor seemed to like carbotech, and they rate pretty good on miata.net

What say you oh great mob of experience?

I always had good service from the Hawks.HPS for DD and auto cross. HP+ for track days.

Not trying to hijack this thread but anyone have any experience with Green Stuff brake pads?

Having used both Carbotechs and Hawks, I like both. The choice will come from your preferred braking technique...Hawks will be more like an on/off switch, and the Carbotechs have a rediculous amount of modulation for how well they grab. Switching from Hawks to Carbotechs will have you scratching your head if you don't remember to actually press the pedal harder!

We did a track- brake pad comparison in the October 2011 issue of GRM.

Pads tested:

EBC- Bluestuff

Porterfield R4

Essex CL

PFC 01

Hawk DTC70 (front), HT10 (rear)

Cobalt Friction CRB XR1

Back issues are available if you didn't get this issue.

I've used EBC Greenstuff and Hawk HPS and they are both very aggressive street pads that can be good for autocross but can also be too aggressive. The Greenstuff pads were horribly dusty and the HPS are not much better. I've also tried Centric Stop Tech Street Performance pads which are very similar but cheaper. I don't think any of these are the best choice for brake control, and certainly poor for track use.

On my 325i, which has better stock brakes, I am running some very cheap PBR/Axxis Metal Master/XBG pads and am very happy with them--very linear and fade resistant. I am sure they might still be crappy for track use, but they are much better than the former pads for autocross/street use.

Centric Premium rotors are very cheap parts that are somewhat nicely finished. Their quality seems to be going down hill with their increasing popularity. At least some of them are identical to Beck/Arney parts. I've been using them exclusively, but beware of them for heavy use. Others have had them crack during track use.

Beck/Arney label with Centric Premium part number sticker placed over it--shipped as Centric Premium rotors but were generic unfinished rotors.

Centric Premium rotor where the parking brake drum surface was left painted. :P

Joe Gearin wrote: We did a track- brake pad comparison in the October 2011 issue of GRM. Pads tested: EBC- Bluestuff Porterfield R4 Essex CL PFC 01 Hawk DTC70 (front), HT10 (rear) Cobalt Friction CRB XR1 Back issues are available if you didn't get this issue.

I didn't see that one - I will say that we love the DT-10s in the Lemons car, but we've never run anything else.

OK my mag collection is at home and I'm in alaska. So what does it say about picking a pad for this application, ie supercharged miata hpde roebling road?

I like carbotech pads, i have had a few sets. Greenstuff pads work ok, but wear out really fast, and the backing plates sometimes arent quite the right shape to fit as nicely as the original pads do.

I've been running Hawk DTC60 pads on my Spec Miata. They are awesome. Not on/off like the old Hawk Blues and HT10 pads that I've tried before. The DTC range pads are also very rotor friendly unlike the old Blues. The DTC pads have a nice feel and are very easy to modulate. You can even drive them to the track (I have) but they will dust badly when street driven and not up to temps.

Centric rotors are awesome.

I don't like Hawk HPS pads on any car that I've tried them on. They don't ever seem to bite. I'd take the Hawk Ceramics over the HPS if you want to stick to the Hawk brand for easier switching of pads from street to track.

For the Miata, I'd stick with the same compound front and rear. No need to run weaker compound on the rear from my experience with the Hawk DTC

amg_rx7 wrote: I don't like Hawk HPS pads on any car that I've tried them on. They don't ever seem to bite. I'd take the Hawk Ceramics over the HPS if you want to stick to the Hawk brand for easier switching of pads from street to track.

This is what I've heard from NUMEROUS people; most suggest going no lower than the HP+. (The OEM pads on the S2000 are better than the HPS)

Is porterfield still in the game? I have been using cool carbon and really like them. They were hard to get for a while but I think the are being manufactured by another company. Very dusty for the street but an excellent pad for a 3000 lb car. I used metal masters on my FC and liked them alot. Since I knew the coolcarbons were going to be hard to get I purchased five sets a number of years back. I am on my last set and will have to start looking for replacements later this summer.

Of this list, I've used Hawk HPS, HP+, and EBC Greenstuff. I went through several sets of Greenstuff pads in street, autocross, and HPDE use. I liked them as a good compromise pad for all three activities. The HP+ performed better, but on my first Miata they squeaked and dusted a lot, which drove me crazy on the street. The HPS has been my standard pad for street and autocross, without track use in the mix. I liked them for that purpose, but don't know how well they'd hold up to track use.

My most recent Miata came with stock pads in front and Hawk HP+ in back. Josh did this to re-bias the brakes a bit to the rear to compensate for the early front lock-up Miatas often suffer from, especially on a modified suspension. I had a stock suspension, but still appreciated the difference in braking. I think it helped even in street driving, as well as autocross. I never drove that car on the track, so I can't speak for whether it would be too much rear bias under those conditions. Plus I wouldn't run stock pads at the track under any conditions. Been there, done that, burned them out and missed my last session as a result.

I use CarboTechs on the Miata. When initial installing, the documentation states to use new rotors when swapping over to CarboTechs because of different compound make-up. I suggest rethinking that combo of AX8 front and 1521 rear, unless your have anti-lock brakes. My base Miata doesn't have anti-lock and I initially used AX6 on front and 1521 on rear. The front will lock up easily and flat-spot and or chord front tires. Drastically reduces stopping distance though and does work very well. AX8 are even more aggressive than AX6. When the front pads wore out I replaced with 1521's. Car is now more balanced and doesn't lock the front up as easily. If you don't have anti-lock brakes then consider matching front and rear pads. Have even been told by more experienced than me that if you don't have anti-lock brakes then even using one step more aggressive on the rear will help keep the braking more balanced.
If you do have anti-lock brakes then never mind.

Although now with 1521's installed front and rear on the Miata I think breaking is better on my RX8 that has HP+ front and rear. Miata is a base with Bilstiens, RB swaybar and stock springs. RX8 has MazdaSpeed springs only, stock everything else.

I sure like porterfields. I couldn't fade the r4s at a kart track lapping session with my street car, and have never faded the r4 or r4E whilst rallying. Nice and predictable and easy on rotors.

In reply to wlkelley3:

I was able to use Carbotech XP10 fr / XP8 rr on the street without issue on a non-ABS car and they were great on track. You MUST bed them in properly though otherwise they don't behave properly, and I used new rotors when switching pads per their instructions. If you don't bed them in, they can be grabby and wear out very fast. I just ordered XP12/10 for my RX-8.

However, since the OP was asking for street pads, the Bobcat compound on my Miata for the street was very nice, but didn't have much initial bite. It took getting used to. They wear very well though. Again, must be bedded properly.

In reply to CGLockRacer:

Had no issues with street use. Worked great on the street. Worked very well autocrossing, just get a little heavy footed and get a flat spot quickly. There was a fine line between full efficient braking and locking up. Followed their instructions to the letter, new rotors and bedding procedures. Weren't really grabby. And the fronts lasted a well over a year of daily driving and a more than a season of autocrossing, combined. No complaints with them. Can see that more aggressive would be great for track.

CG Lock, thanks for the input. I am heading for track days at roebling road, and need new brakes for sure. So my thought was the xp8 fronts for driving there and running, and then later on switching the fronts to 1521 to match rears for street and autox. I figured on getting new centric rotors from them as well. So it would be all new and shiny for my only track event of the year.

Oh yea no ABS, and last year I did flat spot a front looking for that "threshold braking" But 5X runs Spec Miata and it seems pretty standard to run the stronger front pad on a lot of sites.

BTW I looked around and 5X racing had 4 rotors, 1521's for rear and xp8 fronts was going to be $347 with shipping. Only $21 to ship the rotors... Same place wanted $276 for the hawk setup, with higher shipping.

wilkelly; So I have the FM 1.5 spring and Illumina set up with RB bars front and rear. Kind of modified. But no ABS, and I noted else where that most folks say if you DO have abs that you can just use the same pads all around.

One thing I read was to just buy something and see how it fits my driving. Seeing as how I've run the last two autox on my smoked out stock pads from last year, and noticed that the only place that was really scary was on the street, I guess any change will be for the better.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, I'll let you guys know how it all comes out.

In reply to redstack:

The 1521's won't stand up to track use. I made that mistake and burned through a full set in less than two track days on a Miata. XP8's may be borderline on a high speed track. Call up Carbotech. They are very friendly and helpful and will set you up with the right pads.

redstack wrote: I could do the same with the Hawk HPS and HPS+ but my last instructor seemed to like carbotech, and they rate pretty good on miata.net What say you oh great mob of experience?

I say those are both street or auto-x pads. On a race track you need something more. I am not familiar with Carbotechs so I cannot comment there (I am just assuming you chose the same level s the hawks).

I race on Hawk DTC-60s at all four corners with no ABS. I find them to be easy to modulate especially coming off the pedal into corners and decently long lived too. I have also had great results from Performance Friction 97 and 01 compounds also but find the cost a little hard to swallow.

hmm I like the idea of calling carbotech. I am not too hard on brakes really, I mean I used stock pads at RA and while they are toasted, I never lost stopping. I think that Roebling is slower than RA, no Turn 10a or long straits. But I'll go with the idea of calling for sure. Thanks for all the input. I don't put many street miles on the car, so I could always swap pads..

I found greenstuff's to be grabby and super dusty, I like the stoptech streets alot more for dd/autoX duties. Can't speak to track usage yet

I've run just about every variety of Carbotech pads. I love them. Even the XP-12s have enough grip to stop the car without issue on the street and on the track the bite is increadible. The other nice side effect is almost no rotor wear. Fantastic pads!

I had a fried that DD'ed his 944 with XP-8s. They're dusty but work just fine as street pads. I'd go ahead and put XP-8s all around on the car. I'm sure your brake system has anough front bias to ensure that the front brakes lock first.

On my e36 M3 - street driven to the track - I've used a couple sets of Hawk HT10s which weren't bad - I managed to boil fresh ATE Super Blue/200 when the rears pads and rotors were on the thin side. They seem a bit aggressive of rotor wear. I switched to Performance Friction; 06 in the front, 297 rear which was better. One of the rear pads disintegrated w/ 60%+ remaining, so I got a set of 06s or the rear as well. This was plenty of brake 'til I got faster from a season of racing a D sports racer - I need to move up to PFC 01s and higher temp fluid, or a BBK.