Hayabusa or ZX14? 200 hp pretty much out of the box. Very light. But I really don't know anything about putting a bike engine in a car other than I know people do it.
Hayabusa or ZX14? 200 hp pretty much out of the box. Very light. But I really don't know anything about putting a bike engine in a car other than I know people do it.
daeman said:Would a ca18det hit the spot? Or maybe an sr16ve?. Alternatively, how about a Suzuki g13b? I have serious love for the g13b, they rev like no tomorrow, sound sweet, nice and light and they're pretty close to your original displacement.
Left of field, and probably destined to screw the pooch on weight distribution, but how about an rb20? Because small capacity inline 6.....
Is there a benefit to the SR16VE over a SR20VE? Are they the same exterior block dimensions or is the 1.6 smaller/lighter?
In reply to Tom1200 :
It would seem to me that keeping a tiny motor alive when it’s been developed as much as you have tends to get very expensive.
A big engine doesn’t need to be thrashed as hard to get far more speed out of the chassis. It sounds like your chassis is much heavier than it needs to be.
Perhaps if you got brutal with lightening you could pare some weight off ( but it would also be brutal on your wallet). Stock brakes tend to be much heavier than off the shelf calipers from Wilwood . I’m sure there are light weight tubular suspension components that would not only reduce the weight but reduce the unsprung weight as well.
So let’s say you can reduce the chassis weight by 2-300 pounds. While adding similar weight with a V8. I’m sure your lap times would improve significantly.
The question is, is that enough? Or maybe you put those efforts into an altogether faster car? But lose your identity?
mblommel said:daeman said:Would a ca18det hit the spot? Or maybe an sr16ve?. Alternatively, how about a Suzuki g13b? I have serious love for the g13b, they rev like no tomorrow, sound sweet, nice and light and they're pretty close to your original displacement.
Left of field, and probably destined to screw the pooch on weight distribution, but how about an rb20? Because small capacity inline 6.....
Is there a benefit to the SR16VE over a SR20VE? Are they the same exterior block dimensions or is the 1.6 smaller/lighter?
Same block dimensions. IIRC, when I cared that deeply about front drive Nissans, the bore was even the same, the SR16 just had a massive destroke, which is how it was able to make roughly the same power as a 2 liter (same bore size means same area available for valve curtain area and minimal bore shrouding).
edit - Looked it up. I remembered right, the SR20s are generic 86x86 engines, the SR16VE is an 86mm bore and 68.7mm stroke, making 175hp in standard trim and 197hp in N1 models. Take THAT, Civic Type R.
I like the idea of the SR16VE because I think smaller, higher revving engines are a lot more drivable when you have to pedal the car to find grip. On the street I'd prefer the 2 liter any day.
In reply to Knurled. :
Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I've always had an interest from affar with the SR engines.
yupididit said:In reply to Stefan :
Mmmmm L28 with itb's. Glorious!
I was thinking more L20B to keep the weight balance. One can still put Webers or ITBs along with a bunch of other parts to make them sing quite well. Tough, tough design (post war Mercedes acquisition).
Big fan of bike engined light race cars:)
A stock honda K20 will last forever,very rev happy,light,good on fuel and likely as quick in the end as that old ford V8.
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
I read thinking a f20c would be a good option too. Or a medium built 13b no turbos 
Buy used crashed miata and transplant the guts. Parts are dirt cheap, even more reliable and you still get to have fun. 200hp is just a turbo away if you get bored.
All I have to say is wow, never expected this many responses.
I'll try to go through the various responses one at a time. Now keep in mind I'm still agnostic on any set up.
First there is one of the Australian guys who has a turbo 1200 that makes 230hp to the wheels but that motor would need rebuilding at the end of the season. 165 is possible for a pretty mild trim. Class wise with the vintage group I'd be in with the V8s.
SR20DEs are 330lbs, in stockish trim we're talking 160 to the wheels.
Miata motor........the wife made this suggestion as well.
The Honda S2000 motor has merit as one of the 1200 guys has done this. They're not exactly light though.
Datsun L Series engine goodies are pricey as well. Plan on paying $2000 for a cylinder head and $3000 for a gearbox. Like the A-series you need to rev them to get any kind of power and that wears them out rather quickly.
The SBF will fit between the strut towers; the firewall will need surgery, that isn't an issue for my fabricator, plus if it's something he finds fun he'll give me a significant discount.
frenchyd mentioned paring down the weight, the car is still all steel and there is around 80- 100lbs worth of weight that could come out of the car with not to much expense. It's probably possible to get a few more pounds off the SBF with things like super light flywheel etc.
If I put a V8 in the car it would be primarily a track day car. The vintage club allows modern car and has some catch all classes. It would likely end up in with Cobra kit cars. I have a very good idea of what the lap times I'd likely turn and while not front running I won't be a back marker.
The 1200 is just some old lady's street car we turned into a race car 30 years ago whereas my Formula 500 is the 3rd Novakar built and actually as some race provenance. Well as much provenance as an F500 can have. So carving up the little 1200 won't be a great tragedy, besides worst case scenario I put it back to the way it was.
Most motor swaps are going to involve firewall and tunnel mods so it's the same amount of work for a 2.0 or 5.0 motor and either set up runs a catch all class.
Years ago I said the car would either have 100 or 300hp because anything in between was a waist.
My 1200 only had the floor and roof still in steel and wasn’t light enough to really compete anymore. I know they’ve gone to GTlite but it’s pretty outclassed now isn’t it?
I like Knurled's idea of the SR16VE. You already know how to pedal that car to a good finish, why ruin a good thing?
In reply to Tom1200 :
Sounds like you're already convinced about doing a sbf. So get on it 
I don't know what the answer is engine wise but I definitely know we need some pics of your Datsun....... especially in action.
yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Sounds like you're already convinced about doing a sbf. So get on it
My thoughts exactly. SBF probably isn't the route I'd choose but it's your car so whatever makes you happy is the right thing. Any thoughts on what you will use for a rear axle? Maybe cut down 8.8 to keep it all ferd?
I wouldn’t worry about huge power gains, and going with a V8 is going to drastically change the car. You may not enjoy the result. Particularly if you’ve got 30 years in the car, you don’t stick with that unless you love it. Don’t screw with the base formula here.
I’d look for something that is modern, with equivalent weight. I’m sure a power boost will come along for the ride. Maybe a small 1.5/1.6 ecoboost? How bout a Mazda rotary?
Define your desired end result first. Then find the path to get there.
@fedyurhed see the video link my car is the red coupe in front of camera car. Ignore the weavy back end as it was a handling issue (left rear damper) that's now sorted. The cars I'm dicing with are sporting between 50-100 more horsepower and are 300-400 lbs heavier. The video is pretty typical of how I drive the car
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FsApTh6m2Xw
The second video is from the small bore group; go to minute 17 for the start race, after lap 2 jump to minute 27:50 and see one of the most amazing passes ever. I was holding off the Formula Vee for quite a few laps. Also note I miss the apex at the top of the hill almost every lap as the rotors were were chattering like mad so,the braking was fairly inconsistent. If you look in the upper left corner of the windshield you can see my reflection and just how much I'm working the wheel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWpI1dOp5E
I should note that in the 30 years I've raced this car I've also run a showroom stock Miata, a D-sports Racer and have done one offs in Formula Ford, ITC and Formula Vee. I've enjoyed them all.
Chandler........I think your old car is being vintage raced now.
OK fedyurhed here is one more. I show up on the scene at minute 13:35. The right rear shock has actually come undone from it's mount half way though the race. The day before I was dicing with an Alfa GTV and dropped the right rear in a huge chuck hole which loosed up the top mount, the next day it worked loose. Note in this race I had the 73whp 1171cc motor in the car. This was a mixed group with both small bore and B-sedan, I think was something like 12th out of 35 cars.
mad_machine said:I like Knurled's idea of the SR16VE. You already know how to pedal that car to a good finish, why ruin a good thing?
Oh, it's not my idea, I was just answering the question re: difference between it and SR20. 
The SRs are LARGE, HEAVY engines. it would probably be easier to fit an SBF, to be honest.
Now, MY idea would be an early 5 bolt bellhousing SBF for space constraint reasons. As much as I like the idea of a 221, or a 260, it would make more sense to just build a 289 since they all had the same 2.87" stroke but most aftermarket heads are designed for the 4" bore of the 289/302/351, so a 289 would make life simpler. And the rest of the heads are built for aftermarket blocks with Chevy 400 sized 4.125-4.185 bores. A short stroke 4.125 engine sounds sweet, BUT the aftermarket blocks tend to have a lot more beef-iron so it comes with a 50+lb weight penalty.
Not sure what the availability is for performance flywheels/clutches that fit under the small bellhousing. They did only make it for five years and went to the larger 6 bolt bellhousing so they could fit a larger clutch...
Tom1200 said:Chandler........I think your old car is being vintage raced now.
This is the last time I saw a picture of it, great to hear it is still being used.
Edit: guess I don’t have a picture. Heard it had been parted out glad it hasn’t.
How about a GM 60 degree V6? Smaller and lighter than a Ford V8, very cheap, available in aluminum.
chaparral said:How about a GM 60 degree V6? Smaller and lighter than a Ford V8, very cheap, available in aluminum.
When were they ever available in aluminum?
I know that Champion makes aluminum versions of the Stage II Buick V6 (either for wet sump applications or dry-sump only!) but AFAIK nobody ever made an aftermarket 60 degree block, and Chevy's power manual from the 80s described reworking a production iron block.
I ask this as a fan of the 60 degree engine.
In reply to Knurled. :
The Cadillac 60 degree V6 was all aluminum. Or at least the one I used. The heads had bigger ports and valves than the Iron Chevy one did but If I remember correctly the intake manifold wouldn’t swap between carburetor version and fuel rejection version.
In reply to frenchyd :
The what now??
I assume it was in a Cimarron? That would be the only chassis I could think of that wouldn't have used the 4100/4.5/4.9.
Knurled. said:In reply to frenchyd :
The what now??
I assume it was in a Cimarron? That would be the only chassis I could think of that wouldn't have used the 4100/4.5/4.9.
I think he must be talking about the Opel engine they used on "The Caddy that zigs", whatever that bucket of crap was. Same v6 they used in Saab 9-5's.
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