But seriously, why *can’t* we have the windows up?

Could it be due to many vehicles especially at track days have no external kill switch?  Newer cars automatically locks doors but I know the window down rule preceded many of those cars.  This I think it's more to disable the ignition and power source rather than having to break a window first.  And even with proper tools a window is hard to shatter and can leave shards that can cut anyone trying to reach in or out the car.  Plus the speeds capable of many newer street cars are much higher than they were even 20 years ago.  Then buffeting wasn't as big an issue when you are hitting 80-100 versus 150+.  Just my thoughts ....

This screenshot came to me via PM, but Misha Charoudin weighed in as well.

Completely agree with all your thoughts in the article. Have been wondering this for years. Let's get this changed!

Something else to consider here: We may come to the conclusion that windows up is the greatest thing since chocolate covered bananas, but if the underwriters insuring these events say "Windows down because reasons" then it's windows down forever. 

zm2 said:

Completely agree with all your thoughts in the article. Have been wondering this for years. Let's get this changed!

How would change be best attempted? Each event organizer would have to make the change, independently, right? And to JG's point below, are the event organizers even concerned with it beyond what their insurance says/requires? 

I like using hand signals for giving pass signals, it is typically clear and easy to understand. Turn signal controls these days aren't what the used to be, some cars it's a single flash, some 3 flashes, some are hard to cancel without giving a signal on the other side. On top of that like mentioned in the article there are disagreements about which side you should signal on, where you are going or where you want them to go. I also like the extra airflow I get in the car with the windows down as it keeps me and the passenger cooler (no A/C, my car flows significantly more air through the vents with a window cracked).

Having said all of that in a rollover having them down does not seem safer. Even if they do blow to pieces as expected when the car goes on its side at least up until that point they have kept your arms/head inside, I would argue that having them cracked an inch would still accomplish that. I can also see the opposite though in a situation where the car doesn't roll but the doors will not open, not a place you want to be if a fire starts.

There's never going to be a perfect solution when taking a street car on the track, what makes it better in one situation could make it a death trap in another. It's important to think about and review these policies though rather than just doing it a certain way like it has always been done.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

The Ring has its own rules...and I believe they are different depending on whether the road is being used in its open to the public condition or closed to the public but open for true track day driving. In public road mode, traffic is supposed to follow standard road rules, i.e. stay right unless passing...that was the rule I was expected to follow when I was there.

In reply to Spearfishin :

Yeah, seems like it'd have to get phased in at the org/event level to gain momentum. Are we sure that US track event insurance companies require windows down, or is the req just some legacy thing bc "it's always been done that way"?

All this said, when I've raced in NLS at the Ring in the summer, it can get quite toasty in the race cars w/o AC bc windows up are a requirement. You can have them down during the formation lap and after the checkers (helps to be waving to the fans) and you can get away with them cracked a little during the race, but they're supposed to be up. 

In reply to zm2 :

Windows down is much more likely legacy than the underwriters. When I was involved with event organization, the underwriters let the organizers set the rules. This info now 15 years old. The legacy reason dating back to the oldest SCCA GCR/PCS that I  have seen is ventilation. I may still have it, I'll dig the archive later.

My wife who knows little about such things asked me about that when we were watching a track event together on tv, all my SCCA experiences were a long time ago so I dont know what they are doing now, but then it was at drivers discretion. Up if it was raining and down with the heat on which was the most common. Oddly my first drivers school was at charlotte with the first day in a driving rain...and then managing track conditions as the sun came out and slowly dried the track was a treat. :)

I started racing in little British cars that didn't even have side windows (except the ones that were removable called side curtains) so not an issue for those. In either a closed or open car, if you want  a safe cockpit, you have to have a roll cage, not just a roll bar, and attach a side net to it to keep your arms and other bits inside despite doing cartwheels etc., or you need to be OK with wearing arm restraints.  I'd think that either of those would be OK with the organizers, though having never worn the restraints myself, I don't know to what degree they would inhibit pointing to pass etc.

wspohn said:

...though having never worn the restraints myself, I don't know to what degree they would inhibit pointing to pass etc.

No more so than a window net.

Bringing this back up because of recent relevant experience:

Went to Sonoma Raceway last month to participate in an event put on by Hyundai (see article that spurred my participation/forum posts here: GRM article on Hyundai Driving Experience). Event was hosted by Hyundai (South Korean), all of the driving instructors/track logistics staff that I encountered were German, and we were at Sonoma. 

The rule was firmly 'Windows must be UP when on track". Which was jarring, and honestly a much more pleasant experience. I've grown used to the high speed buffeting that comes with being on track with windows down (or in the case of my E46, windows gone), and I didn't miss it one bit. 

So, it would seem to me that the tracks don't care. And I suspect that a manufacturer sponsored event with random members of the public as the drivers was well insured, so tells me that it's not an insurer requirement, or at least not universally. So. What gives?

Spearfishin said:

Bringing this back up because of recent relevant experience:

Went to Sonoma Raceway last month to participate in an event put on by Hyundai (see article that spurred my participation/forum posts here: GRM article on Hyundai Driving Experience). Event was hosted by Hyundai (South Korean), all of the driving instructors/track logistics staff that I encountered were German, and we were at Sonoma. 

The rule was firmly 'Windows must be UP when on track. Which was jarring, and honestly a much more pleasant experience. I've grown used to the high speed buffeting that comes with being on track with windows down (or in the case of my E46, windows gone), and I didn't miss it one bit. 

So, it would seem to me that the tracks don't care. And I suspect that a manufacturer sponsored event with random members of the public as the drivers was well insured, so tells me that it's not an insurer requirement, or at least not universally. So. What gives?

Modern cars also tend to be massive buffet-boxes for whatever reason. Like, driving a Supra on track is borderline hazardous because of how bad it shakes your head and affects your vision. 

And, for the record, I've gotten no substantial answers as to why windows down is still the US standard aside from "That's how it's always been." Still looking into it, though.

JG Pasterjak said:

Modern cars also tend to be massive buffet-boxes for whatever reason. Like, driving a Supra on track is borderline hazardous because of how bad it shakes your head and affects your vision. 

 

People at track days love the Datsun for it's simplicity but I tell them that modern cars are superior in every way.

Apparently I was wrong................

I can confirm that a current M4 Competition buffets pretty pretty bad around 210 km/h, fortunately it clears up around 230 km/h and it doesn't spend very long getting in that range.

There are parts to help with this issue such as these, I might try fabbing something for my E28 as they would be nice on track and the drive to/from with no AC.

Here in Alberta, Canada, Rocky Mountain Motorsports Circuit (RMM) is the exception to the common Windows Down, Point the Car where you want THEM to go. And I love them for it.

With RMM: Windows up allowed, signal where YOU are going. I believe and agree with these protocols more than the former, more commonly encountered kind.

My reasoning: I would wager that windows up to be safer in terms of more frequently encountered hazards of rocks, bolts, OPR, and all sorts of debris being thrown at you. In the event of a window-shattering event (rarer than having everyday stuff flung at you!), passenger car glass is safety glass. Plus, by the point you reach a glass shattering event, the session gets flagged, everything stops, and track workers sweep and clear debris, and recover cars if needed.

As well, I vote that signalling where you are going as way more intuitive, even for someone who has done the opposite in other tracks prior. After all, signalling where I'm going is what I do everyday, anyway. To this day, I still HAVE to talk myself and visualize and rehearse in my head where to point by for all the other tracks, because that's how much it goes against my instincts. (EDit to add: And i still screw up!)

I wouldnt go on a track with my windows open, it would feel very unsafe, the US way is very confusing :) The cars are designed with windows closed, it keeps arms in and debris out if something falls from a car or if i slide into gravel. Especially if run with an open face helmet.

Almost every trackday i ever been on its been indicators, and you indicated on the side that you pull of to like on the road, very simple no confusion and you can keep the hands on the steering wheel :) 

With my single seater sometimes someone point by if needed, but its a race car environment so its really not needed the same way as a track day, skills and understanding is better and speeds more even.

I don't get the drama.  I started out my HPDE "career" with the Audi Club in 2020.  So they are point-by using turn signals to the side you want the pass on (so mimicking arm out point-by) and you could choose to run windows up.   They are the only club I run with that does this.  I love it.  Windows up in cold and rain and no buffeting.  Could even run them up/run AC in the hot if you wanted.  '00s of folks are extracted from vehicles every day by EMS without drama with the windows up on public roads, I don't buy this as a major safety issue.  Windows down allow track debris and other crap to enter the car.  Windows down in a crash with a roll can allow arms/other body parts to leave the vehicle.  Sticking your arm out the window at 100 mph and off the steering wheel just can't be as safe as both hands on/hit the stalk.  Clearly to accept windows up in the U.S. we have to accept turn-signal point-bys which seems to be a sticking point by many.  I get that in Euro they signal to the side they are moving but here, our HPDE rules are that you stay on-line and overtaking car has to go off-line so you point where you want them to go/not where you are going, a bit different w/r to how the signals should be utilized.  I will say though that arm out point bys are very intentional and hard to screw up - but what is the obsession that HPDE is so risky  w/r to passing?  How many car on car accidents during passes have happened from a botched point-by at HPDEs?  Nobody shares info/data like this and any other safety-based culture (mining, industrial) uses data to make safety decisions and shares the info, here it's "just because" along with made-up risks that data would prove otherwise in my mind.  I like the signal to the side you want to the overtaking car to pass...should be easy logic following how we do arm-out point-bys.  Folks hate change, it's a universal truth but windows up is 100% safer than down for track days.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

Of course, often there are few data-backed reasons for this tradition beyond "just because" and folks will say anything they can to avoid change in life.

theruleslawyer said:

I feel like so little of the safety discussion at the HPDE level is data driven. It is tribal knowledge and superstition. Maybe one dude 30 years ago made that decision and everyone has blindly followed it since then. Windows is just one.

4pt harness with ASM is one I hear a huge amount of FUD about. Even though most national organizations allow then in one form or another a lot of people haven't updated their knowledge.

Harnesses with a harness bar is another. Again most national orgs allow it. Most credible scientific research I've heard of says that they are safer even without the rollbar. BUT its not accessible where I can point to it and show people. For some reason people seem to think they would have enough to core strength to physically duck in a roll over event.

I'd love to see more studies cited for safety rules in general. The endless arguments where nobody can prove anything is frustrating.

100% man.  The 4-point Schroth harness/no cage argument is biblical online, the risk of a rollover and your roof crushing and you moving out the way b/c you have a three point is about zero.  The risk in a rollover is you not staying put and striking things like the car, the ground (b/c your windows down) etc.  There are data out there; a bit of research info I found:

https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/seat-upgrades-safety-rules.439355/post-8024898

David S. Wallens said:

This screenshot came to me via PM, but Misha Charoudin weighed in as well.

Also most stupid thing ever...watching Misha drive 150mph+ on the ring with a harness and no head/neck restraint.  The U.S. doesn't own the 100% rights to having silly rules.

I would think that Motorsport Safety Foundation would have something to say on this... or maybe Ross B? In North Texas we run windows down with the exception of sever rain, where blinkers are used to direct the point.

In reply to wvumtnbkr : it was always windows up for street car drag racing at PBIR but windows down for street car track day events.  I think optional would be the ticket here in the daytime heat of S FL as some street cars don't have (working) A/C or don't want to risk blowing the compressor.

I have a friend who lost her leg due in a rollover crash while offroading in Africa... 4X4 with no doors.   I have always wondered about the safety of tracking with open windows and the potential of an arm amputation due to an open window in a rollover crash.