759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
2/22/18 11:56 a.m.

As I understand it, you two are professors of the fine art of all things automotive. Is your chosen profession still a rare occurrence in the high school setting or is there a resurgence in this skill being offered in curriculums across the land?  My other thought is, are those that are enrolled genuinely  enthusiastic about the 'course' or just waiting for the bell to ring?    

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
2/22/18 8:31 p.m.

Automotive  programs exist in older schools, but they don't seem to be built in new schools.  It's also a rather "specialty" area that is a lot harder to "fake" than wood or metal - as such, Auto teachers as well as Electronics teachers are the hardest to fill.

I may be mistaken, but here in Canada, many school districts seem to look at what you folks do in the states, and figure it's the best way to go. I'm not always sure I agree. The first district I taught in had shut down a wack of shops, sold all the equipment for pennies on the dollar, and built generalist "Tech Ed" shops like the US went in the 90's. The school I was at lost two Metal Shops, a Power Mechanics shop, and a Wood Shop. A new school was built with no Metal or Auto Shop.

The current trend is to embrace the "Maker" movement, and have rooms full of cast off junk, where kids "figure out" what they want to learn, what their goal is, and how to get there.  All with no basic foundation of knowledge and skill, and no real, quality, skill development (in my opinion).  I think the quality of the program suffers for the -majority- of students (though a minority - the real "nerdy" kids - will thrive, not that that's bad, it's just you can't cater to the top 10% and leave the 90% behind). I detest "Maker" replacing "Shop," and the current push appears to be a "Maker" component within all subjects, and get rid of all "Shops."

I've gone back closer to the 70's as far as skill development.  I build and build on more and more skill, such that every kid should be able to confidently use every piece of equipment I have to a competent level by the time they graduate.

Our Provincial Gov't has decreed a "new curriculum" which emphasizes "inquiry," among other things. That's not necessarily bad, though I want my brakes done RIGHT, not how you FEEL it should be done. My Mechanics curriculum must include an "Aboriginal Component" and I'm not sure what that would actually look like. There is also a "Design Component" which made no sense to me - you don't "design" things in repairing a vehicle - but that was recently removed by the powers that be (thank you). -I- do design, but that is WAY more "Metalwork" than "Mechanics." I teach Metalwork, as well as Drafting, too.

I'm rambling.....

I don't think Automotive is resurging. Shops cost money, and the Educational System is all about money. If they don't HAVE to build it, I don't think they will.

As for the kids (your real question?), I've been at my current school for 16 years, and have built a good reputation for providing a solid course.  I hear from other teachers that kids talk saying "you learn a TON in (my) classes." I'd say that maybe 60 to 70% of the students want to be there and want to learn.  There are a handful that are just looking for easy credits, and there are usually 1 or 2 kids who are constant behaviour problems. That's probably typical.  Of those, MAYBE 5% of the students I teach in Mechanics will pursue a career in Mechanics.

I have a couple philisophies about teaching Mechanics.  Or heck, teaching -anything-:

1) You need to be passionate about it.  Not that you have to instill that passion, but you need to be genuinely "into" whatever it is you are teaching.  You need to SHOW the stuff you are doing on the side, SHARE the things that excite you, GO OFF on tangents and rabbit trails in classroom discussions exploring history or cool stories or fun facts about whatever the topic is.  Not that it's curricular, but it's RELATED, and we ALL remember the stores from high school.  HAVE a project on the go in the shop that kids can see where this knowledge can take you; show off your skill. I had the Lethal Locost at the school for the first year of build.  I had the V8 Firefly in the school shop for three years.  I built up the Squarebody in the shop.  I have my '61 Apache in the shop.  Kids need to SEE this.

2) If you're teaching Mechanics and you don't have a cool ride, you're doing it wrong.

Did I address your question?

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
2/22/18 9:01 p.m.

SkinnyG, you most certainly have,sir and I applaud you for your commitment, dedication, and enthusiasm. As a young person over 48 years ago I was shepherded into the 'college preparatory' path of life, college never happened (maybe the college of hard knocks) and all my skills are self taught....if  only  wink With 5% actually pursuing the trade there's got to be a real shortage of qualified techs no? 

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
2/22/18 9:21 p.m.

We're already there, my good man.

But we've been telling kids for YEARS that smart people go to University, and dumb kids take a trade.  We've done this to ourselves.

I gathered a WACK of Provincial data, with personal anecdotes from kids who since graduated, and I do a presentation to my students showing them that based on our local University costs, Provincial standards for degree-job and trade-job income, plus paying back student loans, on average, all things being equal - if you aren't making AT LEAST 25% MORE money in a degree field, you will NEVER match the total salary earned in a trade in 32 YEARS of working.

But I present this to kids in shop programs. It's the rest of the student body that needs to hear this. And Admin.  And parents. And the School Board. And the Ministry of Education. Assuming they will listen.

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
2/22/18 9:36 p.m.

I had this thrown at me just last week ......my bible study teacher is also a school teacher...when he first started his journey as an educator, the principal made it very clear that the ABC's were to be embraced and don't bother with the all that learnin'.

  • Athletics
  • Band
  • Cheerleading        

And here in Texas schoolboy football reigns supreme......would like to hear Vigo's take

 

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
2/22/18 10:05 p.m.

I'll relay my high school "automotive technologies" experience. Although it's not current or relevant to the questions asked.

I started in 1995 and it happened to be the last year of the teachers career. I'm sure he was a knowledgeable guy. I know he had a good reputation. However he was just mailing it in. Every day we watched a couple motorweek episodes that he had recorded over the years. We had a couple cars and would be instructed to remove and replace various components. But that was about it. Honestly I learned more reading car craft and hot rod magazines. 

The second year was the first year of the new teacher. We spent most of the year renovating the shop. Painting the walls and removing the massive amount of random parts that had collected over the years. Taking out old equipment and installing new. After that we did some oil changes and brake jobs for people he knew. 

The third year I co-oped. I worked at a E36 M3ty little garage that the school set me up with. I did oil changes, mounted and balanced tires and was the parts runner/shop bitch. I showed up one day and the owners son stuck his head out the front door and told me to go home. I turned around to head back to my truck and was confronted with an armed FBI agent. Apparently the owner owed the government a ton of taxes and had received a cease and desist order from the IRS but ignored it. So they were collecting all his records and inventorying all his equipment. Like I said it was a E36 M3ty little place. 

Anyway I felt massively let down by the whole experience. I really had a thirst for knowledge about all things automotive. I guess it was just a case of bad timing. I'm sure the classes that came through after I did got a much better experience once the new teacher got everything set up and the program going the direction he envisioned. 

 

The one thing I did learn however is that while I loved all things automotive, I quickly figured out I did not want to work on other people's cars for a living. And although I didn't go I did win a partial scholarship to UNOH through a statewide ASE competition so that was pretty cool. 

 

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
2/22/18 11:01 p.m.

Well, for one thing i feel a little out of my league getting roped into this conversation alongside an instructor with many, many times my experience. I've only been teaching for four years! All post-secondary too, so limited relevance as far as judging thehigh-school-aged student body in general.

I spent my first three years working at an overpriced for-profit diploma mill. I think that does somewhat address the point about financials in that even if public schools have limited incentive to create these programs, there is a market in for-profit post-secondary education here in USA. As long as a school can qualify for 'Title IV' federal financial aid you can rope in a lot of students who don't have to pay much of anything up front and make a killing off, essentially, the federal government's largesse in underwriting a bunch of kids who have no credit worthiness of their own and no real context on how much money they're 'spending'. That's not a critique of federal student aid in general, but it can certainly be twisted to very profitable ends and thus prop up the existence of trade schools like the one i worked at.

I now work at the same public community college i went through out of high school. This program has existed for at least 30 years. Our program coordinates with most of the area's high school programs on some small level or another, so there is probably someone there who can speak to the trend line of whether there are more or less high school programs now than in years past. I'll ask about it. I personally haven't been paying attention for too long (10 years at most) but from what I personally know, the number of high school programs in my area has been pretty steady in that time. 

I do think my area (San Antonio Texas) probably has more of a market for auto repair than most places simply because its a high population and low income area, which means a lot of the cars on our roads are in need of a lot of repair. It's also a fairly low-educated area where a career in the trades is very much the bog-standard assumption for a huge swath of the population and going to any kind of college is still a rare 'accomplishment' in many families. So, i think San Antonio is uniquely likely to have a high density of these programs. 

For better or worse, both schools i have taught in have been very hands-off about what i actually teach. I'm mostly free of the 'catchphrase' mission-statement compliance type stuff that SkinnyG mentioned. 

As far as the students, working in a college means most people who are in my class are there because they are actively trying to enter this field, or at least think so at the moment. Quite a few of them change their mind, but i'm guessing it's more like 60% of the people i teach who actually end up working in this field.   

Having said that, even students who want to be there struggle constantly. I frequently tell students that good technicians don't always know every answer offhand, but they are very good at finding it. Good technicians must be good learners. I think the public school system in general does a poor job teaching students how to learn, and this follows them even when they make it out of public school and start pursuing subjects they are passionate about. There's a huge difference in how well students do in class and lab settings, with the classroom setting being far more difficult to manage. That's where SkinnyG's 'two philosophies about teaching mechanics' come into play. If i had no obvious personal passion for this subject I feel like keeping students' interest in the classroom would be next to impossible. I've worked alongside several other teachers for whom this seems to be true. 

On some level i'm reluctant to call myself a good teacher because it feels like what i really am is a gifted conversionalist (in person, mind you!) who's also obsessed with cars. That sort of allows me to bypass a lot of the struggle of holding students' attention simply by being 'good with people'. I have no trouble calling myself a badass when it comes to fixing cars, better than most of my teaching peers. However, I feel very weak when it comes to consistently and objectively assessing the needs and progress of the class as a whole, and that's the skillset that i feel like a 'professional' teacher should have. I've got plenty to learn. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
2/23/18 12:12 a.m.

Schools around here don’t teach trades individually. There is normally a “votech” school where the kids not deemed “smart enough” go to learn hands on trades from a group of schools. 

Catch-22 for all because what I’ve seen is nobody comes out of the votech to work in that area. If they do, they’re unemployable because they miss even the basics.

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
2/23/18 8:23 a.m.

Vigo, thank you so much for your response.  I posted this to get a 'feel' for the current state of 'shop' which being in no means a statistician, has substantiated my thoughts. I have a  BIL in NEohio  that owns a sheetmetal /fab shop and he is involved in a 'journeyman ' program that is seeing meager participation/results. Where will all the worker bees come from???sad Oh and the 'dumb ' kids go to 'shop' that right there chaps my A$$.....some of the more intelligent folks I've met are wrench twisters. Not that I was fortunate to have met him, can you say Smokey Y???

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
2/23/18 9:02 a.m.

I've seen enough dumb tradespeople that I purpose to do as much as I can myself.  "I can pay a pro to screw this up, or I can screw it up myself for free."

It is a joy and a delight to get a truly competent person heading for trades.

The worker bees will come from other countries - they KNOW how to work, and are willing to work.  Unless PARENTING and SOCIETY changes, people will continue to blame the school system.

I do my level best, I kid you not, and everything I teach has a flavour and emphasis for "this is how you can make your boss money" and "if I'm paying you $20/hr, you need to give me $20/hr worth of work.  Actually $40/hr to cover your salary, my overhead, and your inevitable unemployment insurance." A surprising number will always argue that I'm NOT paying them money, thus no need to work.

Oh - and why would a kid take a shop class where you have to work, sweat, hustle to get things done, when they can take a "Leadership" class and make posters while eating slushies?

I also think making a kid drag their butt all the way through to grade 12 is a waste of time for some.  Lots of kids just need to go out, get a job, and get on with their lives.  BUT - a warm body in a seat is money for the school, so they want to hang on to them - and then kids are taking "whatever" just to fill time, reinforcing to themselves "lazy." That's a hard one to break; to reshape a kids' mindset.

And to all o'yall who hate teachers - try teaching someday.  It is the hardest most exhausting work I have ever done, and I've pulled wrenches, worked green chain, assembly line.... it's emotionally and mentally exhausting. And yes, I know there are crappy teachers. There's crappy doctors, lawyers, flaggers, roofers, dentists, electricians, cops.  Crappy kids go somewhere when they get older.

 

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
2/23/18 9:12 a.m.

It's been said a couple times that shop class is for dumb kids. I'm sure there is a reason for that stereotype however I was in all AP classes until I decided I wanted to take Auto tech. There were a couple "unsmart" kids in my class but a majority of the guys didn't fit in that group. They just had a passion for cars and wanted to learn more about them. I honestly don't think very many of us went into it thinking we were deciding what we wanted to do for a living. We just wanted to play with cars.

dropstep
dropstep SuperDork
2/23/18 9:23 a.m.

Our local trade school just had a huge expansion done, auto tech is still the first class too fill up every year but alot of the local schools do prefer to send there "troubled kids" too the tech school Instead of kids who desire it. It's a 2 year program and back in 03-05 half of our junior class failed out of the program. Junior year was basics and rebuilding engines on stands, breaking down and reassembling struts, etc. Senior year you worked on customer cars. 

My shop teacher retired 2 years after I graduated too go back to working in a garage because the quality and desire of the students just kept dropping. His last senior class had 5 students that he said he could actually recommend for a job. We have hired 2 recent members of the auto tech program and from what they have said and no it's primarily book learning now with very little hands on lab time. 

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
2/23/18 9:44 a.m.

First, I want to thank everyone who provides the opportunity of programs like this. Second, those of you who teach in them please know you make an impact.

Growing up in the Navy required moving, every two years during my dad's time in the service.  I went to two middle schools and two high schools in three states over 6 years.  At that time everyone of the these districts had programs that you had to earn your way into, if we ever stayed put long enough I would would have been in heaven.  But there was always band, so the die was cast.

That was until my Sophomore year in high school.  I got braces, that change the shape of my mouth and ended my eight years of playing the Alto Sax.  No more Quartets, Orchestras, and competitions.  I purchased a car with money that I was earning as a dishwasher and I was free.  My parents shifted there focus to my two younger and truly gifted siblings. Both are A+ types and as it turns out very nice people.

My ROP Auto Body shop teacher was a retired Marine.  He had not missed much of anything during the same time my dad was active service and we hit it off.  His program was geared to guys that were going into the trades.  If you were on time to class, respectful of the tools, he could work with you.  He never let the fact that I supposedly lived in the "nicer" area effect anything.  He proved that, to this day, I can not paint.  But he did have everyone watch how I could shape and finish body work.  Something about  bondo and sanding that worked for me.

I did finish high school, went on to Junior College and did graduate with a B.S. on the almost 6 year plan.  My time in ROP helped me understand the difference between earning a living and being good at a hobby.  I have taken this to the point were a hobby can be a business expense, and I seek out craftsmen to do the things that I wish I could do.  

My sister is a Naval Academe Graduate and retired Navy Captain.  My brother is a ME and patten attorney.  I , am just a stock broker.  As the oldest and slowest, they still keep me on my toes.   

  

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
2/23/18 9:45 a.m.

Yes, I agree with you, sorry. I might be ranting. blush

Very few of my students are also taking a significant Science like Physics or Chemistry or Biology.  Maybe one kid per class, if I'm lucky. Most take the lower English and the lower Math classes.

I gotta tell you a story about one kid - never seen anyone like him before, or since:

He was University-bound, until he took one of my courses just for credits. He ended up really enjoying it, and my unusual sense of humour and/or teaching style. He ended up taking all three levels of my Metalwork, Mechanics, and Drafting classes. He chose not to go to University and went off to the college to take Auto Mechanics. He just finished his Red Seal (4-year Journeyman's papers, Inter-Provincial), and went back to the college to take Mechanical Engineering (where his head is at - I figured he would get bored pulling wrenches).  He's since build a couple of cool Hondas, got into road racing and hill climb, bought a house, doing well. Those stories keep me inspired. He used to email me with questions about HOW things are working or interacting, especially if you modify them - the college couldn't answer his questions; I said they're teaching you how to fix it, not engineer it.

Oh, I ran into a kid at the parts store the other day.  Took my class way back - I don't remember him.  He said "I failed your class - but look at me now, I'm a mechanic, running my own shop!"  Cool!  Likely "where he was" during highschool was just the wrong place at the time. MOST kids sort themselves out later. I don't remember the kid at all.

And truthfully, I bet almost NONE of us on here are in the career field we chose back when we were teens.

Another kid - nice guy, a bit intense, likes tractors. When he was in grade 12 in my MX class, he told me about some truck he found out in a field.  He described it, I drew a picture of a 1940 Ford front end, and yep - that was it! I told him "first - tell no-one where it is. Second - try to find the owner and see if it can be for sale." Next day he shows me a picture - it's ALL there, it's COMPLETE, it's a V8, and the guy gave it to him for free. "Ok.  I officially hate you now." He's since gone on to get it running and mobile using vintage flatty speed parts, saving the patina, and driving it.

Another kid in my Metal 9 class, when he heard I was after a 60-66 truck, showed my pictures of the TWO '66s he had. He just stopped by yesterday (he had left school) to come and check out my newly-acquired '61. He was a difficult kid all the way through, marched to the beat of his own drum, but he is now on the way to sorting himself out.  He dropped out of grade 12 and got a sweet local job, but quickly discovered he didn't like to work (no surprise...). But, he's moved through a couple jobs since and seems to be figuring it out. Delicate kid to try to get him to "meet my expectations of you" without destroying him emotionally and having rebel and be a behaviour problem.

I had an admin come to me once at the end of the year about a kid - "I know he failed your class last year at 40%, took it again this year, and even though you excused the projects he completed the year before, he failed it again with 30% - could we take the 40 and the 30 and just give him a pass at 50%?" I'm dumbfounded.

Today is a Professional Development day.  I'm off to teach the other Drafting teachers how to use AutoDesk RevIt.

That, and the coffee is starting to kick in.

Hal
Hal UltraDork
2/23/18 5:58 p.m.

Yes, I was a "shop teacher" (retired in 1994).  And my experience was somewhat different because of the age of my students.  I taught middle school (grades 6-8). 

I started out teaching high school machine shop for 3 years and hated it.  The other teachers in the department didn't get along and the principal was so afraid of the machinery that I never saw him in the shop area in the 3 years I was there.

After school was out for the third year I heard that they were starting a new "middle school" in the county and the principal was going to be someone I knew and liked and he was looking for a shop teacher.  So I called him and ended up getting the job.  That's when(1969) I found out that "middle school" was a new concept and ours was the first one in the state.  Also, I was going to have all the students in the school in my class (boys and girls, grades 6-8)!!

I asked the principal what the curriculum was?  "I don't know. Why don't you ask the county Industrial Arts supervisor."  So i asked.  "I don't know. Let's see what you come up with."  Thus begun many years of "winging it".  The one good thing was that we were taking over the old high school building that had a very well equipped general shop and an Ag shop.  And they were leaving all the equipment behind!!

So I came up with a curriculum.  Grade 6 - we will learn how to use hand tools.  Ever try to teach 12 year old girls how to use a hand saw accurately or hit the nail instead of their thumb?  But at least they learned what could be done with the tools and how to select the right one for the job.

Grade 7 - Lets introduce power tools, both machine and hand types.   Priority One: Safety, Safety, Safety!!!   Projects were kept simple with the main purpose to learn how to use the tools properly and safely.  Many of the students probably never used those tools ever again after they left my class.  But at least they knew how to if they needed to.

Grade 8 - What would you like to learn about?  I had projects that would further the students skills but also thought it would be nice for them to work on something that they wanted to.  So over the years we rebuilt small gas engines, did all kinds of plastic molding, designed tree houses, etc.  Eight graders have a lot of curiosity about a lot of things.  In a number of cases we were learning about the subject together.  More than once I said "I have no clue, but we will figure it out."

 

I have former students who are contractors, plumbers, etc., but what makes me feel good is the influence on the "average" student.   Last month I went to see a new doctor.  The 50ish receptionist says:  "You were my shop teacher in middle school.  I still have that coat rack I made in 7th grade.  I just put it up on the wall in the laundry room in my new house last week.  My husband and I did all the trim work in the house since you showed me how to use a miter box."

 

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
2/23/18 7:09 p.m.

I really enjoy teaching the younger grades.  

You can still be a goof, the kids still respect and enjoy you, the crazier you are - the better. I also get a good cross-section of everyone when they all have to take it.

Some years my senior numbers go up and I lose the younger ones - makes for a much less enjoyable year. Last year I picked up the younger ones again after 5 years away. REALLY fun, though I admit I forgot how much more energy you need to have with them.

Run_Away
Run_Away HalfDork
2/23/18 9:59 p.m.

This has been a really interesting thread for me. I feel like I'm fairly fresh out of trade college, but I suppose I've been out for almost 10 years now.

 

My $0.02 is that you absolutely need to have a passion for cars to make it in the auto industry. I had a co-worker who took this career path thinking it's an easy job that anybody could do, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  I also can't quite figure out my stance on the schooling portion of things. I went to a French immersion high school, so there was no chance for me to try shops. I didn't go to University because I didn't know what I wanted, and after a year off I took a full time Certificate course at the local community college. I liked it so I continued on and took the full time Diploma course the next year as well, which I found fantastic. I had an excellent instructor, and the majority of curriculum was all electrical and drivability.  I got a job at a local dealer and went through the levels for my Red Seal. I crushed that, got 97% on my exam and was top in the province. The part that I can't quite figure out is that I feel that most of my learning was done on the job - the 20 months of in school certainly laid down the foundation, but I also feel like there is zero replacement for the hands on learning you get while on the job. I'm definitely better in class than on the job - I'm not wired the way some are for crushing flat rate hours like some guys are, but I am definitely doing okay.

The real key is to luck into a job with a good boss/coworkers. I actually don't think any of my classmates that I know of from both years in College taking automotive technician are still in the trade. Many got thrown into the deep end where they immediately were put on flat rate and expected to make hours on warranty pay. Nobody is going to stick around when they're taking on jobs over their heads and making 4 hrs/day.

Turboeric
Turboeric Reader
2/24/18 12:38 p.m.

I spent much of my career teaching at the university level (biology/biochem), and in the latter stages of my career I spent part of my time as an academic advisor for senior students. I saw again and again students who had zero interest in academics, struggling to keep their heads above water so they could graduate with a C+ degree which would be a dead end in terms of a career in the field. Again and again I heard that they had to do a science degree because science was better for finding a job, even 'though they weren't ever going to work in science, and would make more money, sooner, in the trades. But we've fetish-ized a University education as a hallmark of success such that anything else is second prize. I vividly remember advising one student who was mostly failing in his upper level courses, and who seemed listless and depressed at his prospects. At one point he noticed some of the photos of track days around my office and absolutely lit up talking about cars. He and his Dad were restoring an old Chevy, and he thought it was the coolest thing ever. I asked him why he wasn't over on the other side of campus in the automotive tech program, and he told me he needed a degree to get a good job.

I related my experience, where I wended my way through academia, ending up with what is a very good job in academic terms. I didn't get my first "real" job until I was 33, and ended up working long hours making less than a high school principal.  Had I become a mechanic out of high school, I'd have retired making nearly as much, but have earned money (and not accumulated debt) for an extra 10 or 12 years. The net, economically, favoured turning wrenches. I love what I do, which is the best reward, but it's not a golden ticket. But in the eyes of many, I was successful and being a mechanic would have been second prize. And yet, if the professors of the world and the mechanics/plumbers/carpenters etc. disappeared tomorrow, who do you think would be missed more (and sooner)?

I can't count the number of students I tried (mostly unsuccessfully) to convince that to do something useful, that people are willing to pay for, was an honourable way to make a living. My son in law is a heavy duty transport mechanic (doing mostly engine work), and has to solve complicated problems and do careful, precision work all the time. This is not monkey work - it demands skill and intelligence.

So, shop teachers of the world - hold your heads up. Even if the academic snobs of the world look down their noses at you, take pride in imparting useful, essential skills that are needed to keep the world running. Then we'll have fewer people like the full professor of physics I encountered with his hood up, looking with bewilderment at the engine that wouldn't start. I quickly diagnosed a loose battery terminal (corroded beyond belief), and got him underway using nothing more than a pocket knife. Knowledge vs experience. Both is best, but some practical skill will take you a long, long way.

Oh, and one more thing. Skinny G (who routinely kicked my butt at autocross) is amazing. If I'd had a shop teacher like him, I might have become a mechanic after all.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
2/24/18 9:39 p.m.

The real key is to luck into a job with a good boss/coworkers. I actually don't think any of my classmates that I know of from both years in College taking automotive technician are still in the trade. Many got thrown into the deep end where they immediately were put on flat rate and expected to make hours on warranty pay. Nobody is going to stick around when they're taking on jobs over their heads and making 4 hrs/day.

This doesn't really have much to do with schooling but i agree with the idea that the reason a lot of people don't stay in automotive is because their earliest experiences often are in very crappy employment situations. A lot of shops don't want to hire even tech school graduates for the same money they can make in fast food with literally zero experience doing anything without even a high school diploma or GED. The industry is by and large pretty insulting to young people who have invested time and energy (and in some cases their own money) trying to prepare for this field on the assumption that it bring them some happiness to work in it. 

Another problem with this industry is that it's possible and pretty common for your skills to grow far faster than your employer's assessment of your worth. I tell my students that it's not unlikely they will have to jump from one place to another rather than waiting for a 'promotion' in the first place they go to work. 

But, the flip side of that (and this applies most of all to the youngest students, in or fresh out of high school) is that there's no technical ability that trumps basic EMPLOYability. I.e. showing up on time, being reliable, honest, receptive to instruction/feedback, and generally making your boss feel like you're not a ticking time bomb that's going to leave him/her holding the bag when you do something foolish. 

mikedd969
mikedd969 New Reader
2/24/18 10:28 p.m.

I'm not a teacher, but I worked in and around K-12 education for 30+ years, first in and administrative capacity, then in an industry that caters exclusively to K-12.  I'm also the product of an excellent high school level vocational school.

When I was in High School in the middle 80's the current "if you don't go to a 4-year college you can't be successful" obsession we see today hadn't yet completely take over, but you could see it coming.  I was an indifferent student as far as regular academics were concerned.  I was plenty smart enough, I just wasn't motivated by the normal academic subjects.  Lucky for me, our high school had a state-run vocational school co-located with the high school. Right next door as a matter of fact.  They had the same seven programs then that they still have today.   Carpentry, Welding, Automotive Technology, Industrial Electricity, Electronics, Health Careers, and Marketing.  I started the Electronics program at the beginning of my Junior year and it completely turned me around as a student.  I was fortunate enough to have an instructor who was a truly gifted teacher, and in addition to learning a lot about electronics, my grades in all my subject went up dramatically.  The practical electronics knowledge I got in my 2 years there served me well when I joined the Navy, and has continued to serve me ever since.  I know personally many former students of the various programs at that school who went on to have very successful careers in the field they studied there.  Two of my very best friends have been working in the Automotive field since the day they graduated, one of them has a very successful auto repair and service business.  If I still lived in the area, he's the only one I'd trust to work on my vehicles.

That's really only part of the benefit that a well run vocational program brings to a school.  I've often said that the money to fund that school would still be worth every penny, even if the school never turned out a single Electrician, Welder, Mechanic, or Carpenter.  It would be worth it because it keeps many young people in high school who would otherwise become dropout statistics. It also turns kids around who would otherwise become discipline problems.  These are kids who are not well served by today's "one size fits all" college-obsessed K-12 system.

We need more and better vocational education opportunities and programs in our schools, much more.  Just my $.02 of course.....  

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
2/25/18 7:38 p.m.

To all of you that have responded, and hopefully more will step forward with their own testimonies....thank y'all so very much for your commitment to this 'TRADE'.....

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