CAM classing a truck

i have the rules in front of me, and enjoy that they're short. however i'm a tad off on the classing for my truck. it's a 1990 c1500 short bed regular cab, and is basically a 454SS clone but lower.

i'm reading the CAM-T rules that say body styles originating from 1954-89. the body originated in 88 so based on that it falls there. but then CAM-S says this "Sports cars and sedans/coupes with seating for 2 or more adults and pickups"

so do pickups fall into CAM-C and T based on the design or do ALL pickups fall into S with the corvettes and vipers for some strange reason?

reason i ask is my truck is my only non broken backup capable of getting seat time in while the datsun is down for engine repairs, and today is my 2nd missed event because of those repairs. the car won't be done for the next event either likely as my most important goal is being reliable for the challenge, but i want to get seat time and am just trying to figure out what letters to tape onto my doors.

Why do guys all go to the Corvettes and Vipers for comparison?

Those cars are big heavy pigs on a tight AutoX course and a light weight 4 banger with at least one ball can smack them down....

Actually I think they are moving away from any classification and grouping competitors by PAX now.

A lightened up 2wd S10 Blazer with a nice setup would probably be as good if not better than the big 2 road race cars.

All pickups are CAM-S.

Javelin wrote: All pickups are CAM-S.

That's stupid, but then again it's scca....

Ranger50 wrote:

Javelin wrote: All pickups are CAM-S.

That's stupid, but then again it's scca....

i go to the vettes and vipers comparison because a c4 has up to 300hp, weighs 3200#, has 9.5" wide 17's, and a factory LSD. truck has a whopping 240hp, weighs 4000#, has a higher CG by god knows how much, and an open diff. personally it makes more sense for a truck to be grouped with chevelles than in the sports class, it shares way more with a muscle car than a sports car. the exception is the sy/ty, but maybe they only considered those.

number of vettes and vipers at the last autocross: 0. number of pickups: 0. so yeah, if i show up i'm going to "win" cam-s. it was just a silly observation. i'd rather be able to run a class with anyone else in it, just because "i won FP and was 4 seconds off FTD" would actually mean something for my first real autocross in the datsun had there been another FP car there. just some kind of benchmark versus running against myself. don't get me wrong, that is fun and i love seeing how much time i can drop in a day(last event i dropped 4 seconds over 6 runs, and my last/best was limping at 250 on a blown HG). but the group is small and there might only be cam-c cars anyway.

If it makes you feel any better, I too missed today's event.
Not for mechanical reasons, just time/commitment reasons.
Maybe next.

Unless you are going to make a huge commitment to attending and getting every lap available. Just go and enjoy the event and comradery, and maybe go faster than you did last time. Learn stuff, the best improvements are found tightening up the nut behind the wheel.

As you get better and if you find yourself able you will find the right class killer car or build your own Emod and go after FTOD.

There's a '99 or '00 Exploder local to me that has 65,xxx miles and the 5.0/awd combo.

I could probably snag it pretty cheap. I wonder how far I would have to lower it to be autocross legal?

This class opens up all kinds of marriage straining possibilities. :)

For what it's worth, I typically get placed in CAM-C when I take my 2000 Ranger Autocrossing. That may just be because that's the only CAM class that has any representation in my region though. The classing isn't critical to me since I'm out there to have fun, and the chances of a truck being class competitive nationally are pretty low. You can fit a hell of a lot of rubber under them though.

One of the regions I race with, that has a very active CAM community, passed a local rule that anything body-on-frame is eligible for CAM-T, regardless of number of seats or year of design origin (and in fact, we don't even care if it's American).

IMHO this is a common sense extension of the spirit of the rules, considering that Body-On-Frame is very "Traditional".

I don't have the rules in front of me.... Can a '55 Dodge pickup be re-chassis with a 108" S10 chassis and be legal? Or use the original frame with a Jaguar front IFS? Been thinking of doing this for awhile.

In reply to 4Msfam:

Yes, that would be legal. Suspension and engine are pretty much open, so you can use the Jag IFS and you can use either a Mopar or GM engine.

The expansive 2 page CAM rulebook

I agree that putting trucks in "S" doesn't make sense. T or C by by year is what it should be. The classes have been tweaked a bit every year and are getting much better, hopefully next years tweak will fix the truck issue. Write the SCCA!

bentwrench wrote: Why do guys all go to the Corvettes and Vipers for comparison? Those cars are big heavy pigs on a tight AutoX course and a light weight 4 banger with at least one ball can smack them down....

Strange, In my group the fastest car of the day is usually a Corvette. It isn't a straight fast course either, it is usually tight with lots of sharp turns. The last event most drivers spent the first 1/2 of the course in first, some the whole course. A Vette still got the fastest time.

I would own one if I didn't hate GMs.

FWIW, most regions seem to just run CAM as a whole. Only the CAM Challenge events and Nationals actually split up to C, S, and T right now. I ran my CAM-T Javelin against a CAM-C Mustang, and a CAM-S Viper ACR. We were all classified in just CAM.

Javelin wrote: All pickups are CAM-S.

Where do you get that? SCCA appendix specifically makes reference to trucks being classified in CAM C or T depending on year of manufacture. Of course it could be bumped to CAM S if there are no other T or C cars running but rules specifically mention trucks in c or T.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote:

Javelin wrote: All pickups are CAM-S.

Where do you get that? SCCA appendix specifically makes reference to trucks being classified in CAM C or T depending on year of manufacture. Of course it could be bumped to CAM S if there are no other T or C cars running but rules specifically mention trucks in c or T.

In the 2-page CAM rulebook; specifically:

SCCA said: CAM-S (Sports) (all eligible vehicles) • Sports cars and sedans/coupes with seating originally for 2 or more adults and pickups.

Although upon further review, one of the changes for this season also states:

SCCA said: CAM-C (Contemporary) (body styles from 1990-on plus CAM-T cars and CAMT cars with ABS/TCS) • Sedans/coupes with seating originally for 4 or more adults or pick-ups

So it looks like if your truck holds less than 4 people, you are CAM-S, and 4 or more people, you are CAM-C. Note that there is NO provision for pick-ups in CAM-T.

Slightly pointed jab at the CAM guys here.

At the last event I went to there was a huge CAM contingent and they had a lot of fun, but burning up their tires and wailing on their various LS motors was much higher priority than driving a nice clean (fast) line. So a P/U with an open diff should fit right in turning tires into powder.

But they are having fun so it's all good

In reply to Javelin:

"

SCCA said:

CAM-S (Sports) (all eligible vehicles) • Sports cars and sedans/coupes with seating originally for 2 or more adults and pickups.

SCCA said: CAM-C (Contemporary) (body styles from 1990-on plus CAM-T cars and CAMT cars with ABS/TCS) • Sedans/coupes with seating originally for 4 or more adults or pick-ups

See, this is something I've wondered for a while myself as I've contemplated a square body S10 CAM build.

The language reads rather ambiguous to me, based on where the "pickups" part is placed in the sentence. The way I read it, it sounds like the sedans/coupes must have seating originally for X or more adults and then pickups are allowed too. As in the pickups are like an addendum beyond that requirement.

Also curious is the interchangeable use of and/or between the CAM-C/T rules and CAM-S rules. I think this actually lends further credence to my interpretation. The presence of "or" in the C/T rule language seems to further indicate pickups are excepted from the seating for 4 requirement. It becomes "and" in the S rules because the seating for 2 requirement would already be inclusive. Does anyone disagree?

As a practical matter, I doubt anyone (at least in my region, where we actually have a reasonable healthy CAM presence in both C and T) would give two E36 M3s. We've actually developed a bit of a "CAM clique" and all just want to see each be competitive. I think we've had one truck show up since the inception of CAM last year (well, unless you count the El Camino one guy drives when his Chevelle is down) and he ran in T.

And at this point, we STILL don't know what class this truck would run in.... And people wonder why car counts suck/stink/are disappointing with such ambiguity in the language and leeway with the given rules at the region level to "maximize" their own car counts, which at least around here, stink, but I digress.

I applaud SCCA for trying to rope in the pro touring/optima street car crowd, but they'll never come, nor will anyone build trucks when the first thing they see in the rules in one class that they have to run against vettes and vipers, and much better built sedans in the other. Then to top it off, the region you run can dictate what class you run in even though it could be the other class when you believe it's the other. Running for fun can only go so far when you are spending thousands of dollars to put something out there.....

Sorry....I see my error. I was looking at 2015 SCCA Appendix. It did include pickups in CAM T and did not include in CAM S. MY MISTAKE.

that is a weird rule change.

I think the original intent of pickups in CAM-S was in case somebody showed up with a hot rod type vehicle with a very light weight and had a pickup bed in the back of it.

However, now it's clear that the hot rod crowd is not showing up to these events and that there are also minimum weights now.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

No worries man, it's the SCCA. The CAM rules have changed at least 4 times in the last 2 years, and have probably changed again since this thread was started. They are kind of just winging it.

so can i assume cam-t since the production run began in 1988 based on the clear as mud wording in the appendix? i just don't want to look like a d-bag when i show up and have to class my vehicle.

either way i'm running it next event as long as the crack in the windshield doesn't stop them from passing me through tech.

In reply to patgizz:

I would, can't imagine anyone would actually take issue with it. And if they do, they're probably a massively insecure d bag who deserves a swift kick in the stones.

Anyone who can beat you in a vehicle that could have towed itself to the event deserves the win