Can we talk about the OTHER pandemic?

Of course I am talking about vehicles on the road without lugnuts.  There are a shocking number of these, and they seem to be spreading wildly.  Most I come across are only missing 1, but some missing more than 1 on a wheel.  And often 4 or 5 on the whole vehicle.

Why is this happening?  Presumably shops are not doing it.  Presumably people with the skills to be rotating tires, swapping wheels, or whatever are knowledgeable enough to understand the importance of lugnuts.

For example, this car was missing 1 or 2 on each of the 4 wheels.

Too much ugga dugga?

You say shops aren't doing it, but the last time I paid anybody to do a brake job on SWMBO's car because I was too busy, they snapped off two of the five. Taught me a lesson about trusting other people to work on your stuff.

Lug nuts are on back, I am not joking. 

pointofdeparture said:

Too much ugga dugga?

You say shops aren't doing it, but the last time I paid anybody to do a brake job on SWMBO's car because I was too busy, they snapped off two of the five. Taught me a lesson about trusting other people to work on your stuff.

It sucks that this is still happening, I must say.  How tire companies don't take care of that via many paths is a mystery to me- then again, I'm sure they are denying responsibility for breaking them....

Air Impact wrenches set on KILL   :(

pointofdeparture said:

Too much ugga dugga?

You say shops aren't doing it, but the last time I paid anybody to do a brake job on SWMBO's car because I was too busy, they snapped off two of the five. Taught me a lesson about trusting other people to work on your stuff.

There is a very important  bit of information left out- Did they break coming off, or going back on?

That's just because it's an Altima. 

In reply to alfadriver :

Accurate; they said nothing about the damage when I came to pick the car up, and when I noticed, got very upset, and pointed it out, they denied any responsibility.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

See above...some mysteries are unsolvable by us mere mortals.

Yeah I ran over two spline drives yesterday in the road. Almost stopped but didn't want to risk my life for two lug nuts. 
 

I see it a lot and I think it's a story like this: 

lil Suzy gets a flat. Lil Johnny Swinginwrench shows up roadside.
"Hey baby, I'll fix your flat" (wink and nod)

Suzy: (silence) 

Mr. Swinginwrench: "there ya go underage girl I just met. The spare is now attached to the vehicle."

suzy: "today I learned strangers are nice."

15miles later... 

suzy: "what was that clinking noise under the car?"

friend in passenger seat: "shut up let's get drunk."

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

How so?

I've lost 5 studs on my Colorado because the wheels came loose.

Each time it was just after I'd taken the snow tires off and put the factory aluminum rims back on. The first time I had torqued them to the proper value and they came loose two days later.  The second time I re-torqued them a day later and they still came loose.

Now I run them on with the impact and they don't come loose anymore.

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

Yup- the tire shop will tell you outright that one broke taking it off, making sure that it's not their fault.  If it broke going on, they won't tell you, so they can deny everything.

alfadriver said:

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

Yup- the tire shop will tell you outright that one broke taking it off, making sure that it's not their fault.  If it broke going on, they won't tell you, so they can deny everything.

If they bind coming off, our policy is to stop right then and there and inform that a lug nut is galling, and at best they are going to have to buy a lug nut, at worst they will have to pay labor time to drill out the stud so we can get the wheel off, then change the stud and lug nut.  Or we can leave the wheel on the car and have them bring it back another time.

TWICE this year I have seen studs start spinning in the hub!

This is caused by overtorque, which is often caused by people oiling or putting antisieze on the threads.  That changes the torque spec, the lug nut gets pinched at the taper where it sits in the wheel, and it galls because now you have a 12x1.5 stud and a 11.2x1.5 nut.

(something something glorious lug bolt master race )

pointofdeparture said:

Too much ugga dugga?

You say shops aren't doing it, but the last time I paid anybody to do a brake job on SWMBO's car because I was too busy, they snapped off two of the five. Taught me a lesson about trusting other people to work on your stuff.

99% of the vehicles I see missing a lug nut the stud is still in place (obviously I didn't inspect the threads though).  This tell me a nut was dropped/missing/etc.

I would think as a tire shop if a car came in with a missing lug nut it would be policy that you wouldn't touch it without replacing it.  Liability and all that.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

alfadriver said:

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

Yup- the tire shop will tell you outright that one broke taking it off, making sure that it's not their fault.  If it broke going on, they won't tell you, so they can deny everything.

If they bind coming off, our policy is to stop right then and there and inform that a lug nut is galling, and at best they are going to have to buy a lug nut, at worst they will have to pay labor time to drill out the stud so we can get the wheel off, then change the stud and lug nut.  Or we can leave the wheel on the car and have them bring it back another time.

TWICE this year I have seen studs start spinning in the hub!

 

This is caused by overtorque, which is often caused by people oiling or putting antisieze on the threads.  That changes the torque spec, the lug nut gets pinched at the taper where it sits in the wheel, and it galls because now you have a 12x1.5 stud and a 11.2x1.5 nut.

 

(something something glorious lug bolt master race )

Hummmm. I have been using anti cease on the studs and lug bolts for 30 years and never have had an issue.  Lucky?  

alfadriver said:

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

Yup- the tire shop will tell you outright that one broke taking it off, making sure that it's not their fault.  If it broke going on, they won't tell you, so they can deny everything.

Been a service writer.  Doesn't berkeleying matter.  You tell them and you're fixing it cause "you broke it."  You don't tell them, you're fixing it and refunding all of the money cause "you broke it and then didn't tell me and tried to kill me!"

Sam Behr knows why

Mr_Asa said:

alfadriver said:

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to pointofdeparture :

Pretty easy to tell visually if they broke coming on or off.

Yup- the tire shop will tell you outright that one broke taking it off, making sure that it's not their fault.  If it broke going on, they won't tell you, so they can deny everything.

Been a service writer.  Doesn't berkeleying matter.  You tell them and you're fixing it cause "you broke it."  You don't tell them, you're fixing it and refunding all of the money cause "you broke it and then didn't tell me and tried to kill me!"

I wish that has been my experience when things broke.  When it's happened to me, it's always my fault, even when they hide it from me.

I had tires swapped onto a different set of wheels this week with brand new lug nuts.  The nuts were clearly put on with an impact wrench - the corners are all banged up.  Awesome.

I've had a bunch of studs snap off while loosening lug nuts, but never broken one while tightening.  It frustrates me to no end when somebody thinks they need to prove how strong they are by over-tightening the E36 M3 out of something.  Oil filters are even more aggravating.

Time goes by and I think, "I don't want to work on my daily driver.  I'll take it to a shop."  I regret that decision every damn time.

Mr_Asa said:

Been a service writer.  Doesn't berkeleying matter.  You tell them and you're fixing it cause "you broke it."  You don't tell them, you're fixing it and refunding all of the money cause "you broke it and then didn't tell me and tried to kill me!"

You were an honorable service writer doing the right thing by your shop and customers and you deserve kudos. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to represent the majority of shops out there.

Bad mechanics are a lot easier to find than good ones.

Mr. Peabody said:

I've lost 5 studs on my Colorado because the wheels came loose.

Each time it was just after I'd taken the snow tires off and put the factory aluminum rims back on. The first time I had torqued them to the proper value and they came loose two days later.  The second time I re-torqued them a day later and they still came loose.

Now I run them on with the impact and they don't come loose anymore.

I've had issues with wheels loosening up before, so I've developed a system that doesn't involve over-torque and possible damage, but seems to get things to stay tight every time. 

Whenever possible, torque the lugs with the wheel in the air (they tighten and seat better without weight on the wheel).  If you can't get full torque in the air, go for at least 30 - 40 lb-ft before putting it on the ground.  Torque in 2 steps.  For anything with a final spec in the 80 - 110 lb-ft range, I usually torque to 40 - 45, then the full torque, going around in a star pattern each time. 

Once all wheels are at full torque and on the ground, take the car for a short drive, then torque them all again.  Wait a day or 2 of driving, then check them.  In most cases, after following that method (especially if they were torqued in the air), none will move on that last re-check. 

There are shops out there that will do the right thing, and fix something they broke and tell you something broke when its not their fault. Unfortunately the general sentiment used to be this is my car and my responsibility and if the mechanic found something broken or broke it on disassembly, its still my responsibility, its not like that today. As a whole (obviously not everyone) the driving sentiment, is once you give me an estimate, thats it, im gonna hold you to that price and if anything else happens its on the shop. This with the price pressure driving the industry downwards, results in some shops simply not telling people stuff broke because it will just end up being fixed on the shops dime.

Think about it we probably all know a shop that will treat your car like their own when they are doing tires and they may charge more and not be as convenient, but those arent the shops you see spreading like wildfire.

Just my two cents from when i was in the auto industry.

Almost everytime I meet a stereotypical Honda owner (the tacky/riced out kind) buying some random part, or at a meet, almost all of them happen to have a missing lug nut, it's weird, but it was a high percentage of the owners. I know the fronts can be a pain to do, but still...

I've had bad luck on my dad's Accord with lugnuts from chain tire shops. Almost all the time it is due to the shop not caring and impacting the lug nuts on. Luckily, I got my dad to force the shop to fix one of the fronts for free. But I'm done with taking it to those shops. The rears, I can do myself luckily, but recently did have to replace a rear hub due to the lug nut spinning with the stud. 

bigeyedfish said:

Time goes by and I think, "I don't want to work on my daily driver.  I'll take it to a shop."  I regret that decision every damn time.

I hate this, I don't want to work on my dad's car, but knowing that he does want to get a new car eventually and I kind of want his manual Accord, I am already starting to do basic maintenance on it now, grr starting to see things wrong with previous work. 

bigeyedfish said:

I had tires swapped onto a different set of wheels this week with brand new lug nuts.  The nuts were clearly put on with an impact wrench - the corners are all banged up.  Awesome.

I've had a bunch of studs snap off while loosening lug nuts, but never broken one while tightening.  It frustrates me to no end when somebody thinks they need to prove how strong they are by over-tightening the E36 M3 out of something.  Oil filters are even more aggravating.

Time goes by and I think, "I don't want to work on my daily driver.  I'll take it to a shop."  I regret that decision every damn time.

It's okay to zip lug nuts on with an impact, but a torque wrench must be used after, and the lug nuts must turn at least 1/8 turn or so before hitting the torque spec.  (Major peeve)  Usually with my 2135Ti, a gentle finger so the vanes zip the nut on and the hammers only apply from inertia and not air pressure is about 1/4 turn away from torque.  (If the threads are gummy/dinged  enough that the nuts don't spin on from inertia, that gets fixed with thread chasers.  I take wheel fasteners VERY seriously)

If they break on removal, they were galled from persistent overtightening or the threads were damaged.  This is not ALWAYS due to installation factors: cheap aftermarket studs don't have the right surface hardening, and will gall with frequent R&R.