Challenge Thoughts

DrBoost wrote: To see a guy hammer out a fender on a tree in his backyard, that's grassroots.

I did that for real.

Let me preface my remarks by saying I've never been and probably will never get to go since my year doesn't open up for any fun constructive work except from about November to April or May. I'd have to build by May and then sit on the car till the Challenge and then send someone else down with the car and we know that's not going to happen.

But based upon the comments above I feel you should cancel the 20XX Challenge since obviously everyone thinks the rules are unfair, not being enforced &/or don't apply to them. It appears that no one had a good time, didn't learn anything from the event or get any inspiration. This weekend apparently was a total waste of everyone's time.

I love the concept. I believe simpler is better. I'm torn on the tires as I can see both sides and I am one who would never have a chance of scoring some cheap tires. Fire bottle seem like a good idea from the availability stand point.

I've always been puzzled by the concours section, but I've always presumed it wasn't the most perfect example of the car, but the most creative presentation of the car that got the most points. That sounds like it adds fun to the event, but maybe it could use some clarification so that everyone is on the same page.

As far as best engineered, I don't believe the proof is in the pudding, I think the creativity and the ability to think outside the box is a very big plus to this event. So the great idea someone had in the middle of the night didn't work exactly as planned on version 1.0, but there's always next year and version 1.2. I've seen lots of crazy things tried over the years and it's been amazing which ideas flopped and which ones worked.

The thing that's always appealed to me about the event was the fun factor and the chance to try out wild and wacky combos to see what really worked. The only way to settle the bench racing is to put them head to head - isn't that what's being done now? Or at least isn't it what's been done in the past?

I love the articles on the cars afterwards. I like the strange ones the best. I like people who think outside the box. I LOVED the sucker car. I can't imagine people complaining because a couple of people scored great deals on Vettes this year. Wasn't the sucker car also a Vette? Who was complaining then? They were just so awestruck with the ingenuity the Vette part was superfluous.

I understand why, but I was a little underwhelmed with the info on the dedicated Challenge update page. Some of us have to live vicariously thru others. I never did see an in car video on that page even tho I was told there would be some.

The sucker had it's haters, but got by on the money issue because it was purchased as a rollover, and they displayed a very large picture of the car in it's original condition, so it would be very hard to cry "foul" on money, at least as it realated to the purchase price.

In reply to SVreX:

I'm new to the Challenge and the forum. Unfortunately I do get defensive when someone challenges my honesty or work.

Thanks for advice.

I like the fact that there are several ways to prepare cars for the Challenge. Isn't that why the contest is interesting? Do I buy the best $2000 car I can find, leave it mostly stock and see how it does? Or do I buy three 300ZXs for $300 and build one car from the available parts? The latter gives more room for performance improvements, but does it make for a better overall car? .... I have an idea.... why don't we have a race and find out?

I have known for several years that a Challenge Corvette is possible (Before the sucker Vette was built.). I am not in the least bit surprised that 2 were done, and done well this year. Why criticize anyone for having the ability to see the potential for a certain model of car and having the patience to find the right deal and the ability to prepare it for the event.

The rules allow plenty of leeway on what cars can be used and how cars, parts and parts cars can be bought and sold to the best of the Challengers abilities. It is the combination of those abilities that produce the winners. I don't believe that the ability to fabricate is any more important than the ability to scrounge. In fact I think they go hand in hand. Andy can fabricate his a$$ off but he still has to find the right parts for the right price. The fabrication skills make for the best editorial content, but there are still plenty of interesting stories of the hunts and acquisitions of the less spectacular builds. Some times the KISS method does work best, it just isn't the sexiest way to go.

If you want the Challenge to grow in size, it is counter productive to limit the field to only fabricator cars. There will always be those who have the skill and desire to fabricate great creations. Isn't it better if there are more "normal" cars for those cars to compete against?

I'll chime in on behalf of Wreck Racing.

• Fire extinguishers: a good idea

• Concourse: it does seem to be a little nebulous as to how teams are scored and this makes it very hard to decide how to spend time on concourse-type projects. Last year we won, this year we placed 11th with the same car plus a supercharger and huge wing, etc... Obviously we loose the "wow" factor from year to year, but being able to anticipate how the car will be scored would be nice. (tough to do, I know...)

• Drivers: finding some way to limit the influence of pro drivers might be nice. Maybe unlimited runs for non-pro drivers as long as there is no line at the start? Also, please make the rule clear beforehand. We didn't have anyone on our team walk the course and could have made a big improvement on our one non-pro run if we knew about the rule while the course was open for walking.

• Tires: I don't think we have a preference. It's not hard to find any used auto-x or race tires for a reasonable price if you look around.

• Shipping: Gotta charge for it. Like Per said, it's too easy to find deals were someone will sell you something at a huge discount if you are willing to pay big bucks for shipping.

I just wish to add, I love the challenge enough to buy a $2K car 12 days before the event just to be there.

Bring on $2012

I have built two challenge cars (one never made it to the event) and have approached both from a standpoint of enjoyment, for me, first and foremost. I have not been concerned about what disadvantage(s) I may have with respect to tools, skills, access to cheap parts or materials. I am as competitive as the next guy, but I would never put that much effort into a "win" with no real compensation if I did not enjoy the process as the main goal. For me, the event is for enjoyment and in part seeing the skills and creativity displayed by other teams that I will probably never learn and/or possess.

Sure, some teams have more advantages than others in access to tools, cheaper parts, professionally garnered skills, etc., but that is life. That is what makes the event interesting to me. You have the guy that did a motor swap under a tree limb hoist with a pair of channel locks and a 9/16" open end wrench and the team that fabricated a car that any magazine would be proud to put on their cover competing head to head. Again, that diversity is appealing to me.

In the process of spending countless hours "shopping" and scrounging for needed parts on my builds, I have come across some amazing deals, not necessarily what I was looking for at the time. I would rather see one of these cars show up at the challenge than being excluded because the FMV is higher.

"I'm new to the Challenge and the forum. Unfortunately I do get defensive when someone challenges my honesty or work." Wow, you really do have a hard time reading. But don't worry, you're not alone... "Why criticize anyone for having the ability to see the potential for a certain model...."

Read this from my earlier post: "I'm not challenging the legality of the 1K car, I'm challenging the rules that let it happen." If it helps, read it slow or have someone read it to you.

fastclown wrote: "I'm new to the Challenge and the forum. Unfortunately I do get defensive when someone challenges my honesty or work." Wow, you really do have a hard time reading. But don't worry, you're not alone... "Why criticize anyone for having the ability to see the potential for a certain model...." Read this from my earlier post: "I'm not challenging the legality of the 1K car, I'm challenging the rules that let it happen." If it helps, read it slow or have someone read it to you.

Let it go. It's demeaning to both of you.

fastclown wrote: "I'm new to the Challenge and the forum. Unfortunately I do get defensive when someone challenges my honesty or work." Wow, you really do have a hard time reading. But don't worry, you're not alone... "Why criticize anyone for having the ability to see the potential for a certain model...." Read this from my earlier post: "I'm not challenging the legality of the 1K car, I'm challenging the rules that let it happen." If it helps, read it slow or have someone read it to you.

Perhaps you should reread my post!

I wasn't responding to your comment about the legality of the Corvette, I was responding to your statement that this is becoming an exercise in purchasing over fabrication. (yes, I know this isn't a direct quote, sue me.) My point was that there is room in the Challenge for both and both have their merits. But hey why bother to take a quote in it's full context.

"I am not in the least bit surprised that 2 were done, and done well this year. Why criticize anyone for having the ability to see the potential for a certain model of car and having the patience to find the right deal and the ability to prepare it for the event. " OK. You're right it sounds more like someone is criticizing the Vettes when it's fully quoted.. I apologize...

Arguing with a clown is a bit of an oxymoron.

There is a lot of constructive stuff in this thread, but it is getting lost in the silly arguments.

If GRM wants to write rules that emphasize purchasing over fabrication, go for it. If they'd like to reverse that, bring it on. It's their show- they get to write the rules.

The event exists to generate editorial content. Only GRM can determine what type of editorial content they are trying to encourage.

As I said earlier, the Corvette is legal because GRM saw the build sheets and did not DQ it. Legal.

GRM is asking us for constructive input. I appreciate that, and welcome the opportunity to do so. Can we stop arguing about what we want or don't want, or what we like or dislike? It's not constructive.

Let's stick to trying to give the feedback we were asked for.

Thank you SVreX- The event was good and a good time was had. The discussion is ideas and suggestions to improve it. Mama always said that you can't complain if you don't have a better idea to share first.

Ben wrote:

DrBoost wrote: To see a guy hammer out a fender on a tree in his backyard, that's grassroots.

I did that for real.

Cool! I chose that specific thing because, back in 2004 when I entered there was a guy (can't remember his name, I bet he's on here still) that entered a white 260Z (IIRC). I was amazed at the kick-butt fenders he made. When I mentioned about the killer body and the cleanness of the fenders he said "Yeah, I built those. I am pretty good at body work and I pounded those out with a hammer and sand bag on a tree in my backyard."
I was speechless.
I knew there'd be some large amounts of awesome at the challenge but that was insane. I didn't know what to really expect (I think that was the 4th challenge?) from the cars there, I just wanted to play. I did have a goal to place in the top 1/2 and I did. Other than that, I had no expectations.

evildiky wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: We had issues with them not wanting to put the Kumho sticker on the front, but I believe they had the rest of the required stickers.

if they don't want those kumho tires I'll take them

That's Funny... Coming from you...

Argo1 wrote: For those who are interested, the photos that I shot at the event can be found here: www.alsoranracing.com The good, the bad, and the pointless.

Nice pics. loved the fire-chicken-via-hot-rod-flames paint. It obviously had some guts, too:

It had guts right up to the point it bounced off the rev limiter in second gear. It's an automatic that I left in "2" instead of "D". Gah! I still can't believe I missed a shift in a freakin automatic.

Regarding the whole "shops vs. amateurs vs. colleges" argument... In the past we've had people complain that we've got access to more resources than the "average" entrant. While that may be true, we certainly have more problems to contend with and had to fight every step of the way to earn our 28th place this year. I think that should illustrate rather well that there's no true trump card, at least for colleges.

Don't be to hard on yourself theres always next year :) After I autocrossed mine I put it up and let it set a month and never drove it again till the challenge,now thats just stupid on my part.lol.

I didn't have mine for a month

all these pics so far were stolen from others collections, thanks guys

sanyarcosean wrote:

evildiky wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: We had issues with them not wanting to put the Kumho sticker on the front, but I believe they had the rest of the required stickers.

if they don't want those kumho tires I'll take them

That's Funny... Coming from you...

...??? I had on all my stickers, I did make my own number panels (to match my mach 1.5 theme) as many before me have done, I did also run a GRM sticker on each door since my gumballs took the place of the GRM number panels

SVreX wrote: Pro drivers:...There's a lot you can do with this. Award for the driver that got closest to (or exceeded) the Pro's time? Highest finish without a Pro? Etc... Work with it!

You know the fastest autocross time was not set by a pro this year.

DrBoost wrote: To see a guy hammer out a fender on a tree in his backyard, that's grassroots.

And while the flares on the Vorshlag car weren't hammered out on a tree, they were hand hammered out on a wooden buck made in Terry's garage.

modernbeat wrote:

SVreX wrote: Pro drivers:...There's a lot you can do with this. Award for the driver that got closest to (or exceeded) the Pro's time? Highest finish without a Pro? Etc... Work with it!

You know the fastest autocross time was not set by a pro this year.

It WAS in MY car.

I'm happy for you. Then you would have won an award for it by my suggestion.

I've heard that song before. I'm still extremely happy with pros around.

One day, when you are older like me and your reaction time is fading as quickly as your eyesight, you may also appreciate the existence of the pro drivers.

Besides...he had plenty of seat time and experience, right? That may make him as much a "pro" as the "pros".

Pro drivers are there to give all of the teams an even shot at a good posted time in the autox. We do get a lot of laps but each car requires a different driving style. We have to discover what it needs in the first few turns and then validate it during the rest of the run. The 2nd run is trying to manipulate all of the controls properly while watching revs, shifting, attempting to clip apexes in wildly different cars. The 3rd & 4th runs are usually the ones that we get to lay down a good run time with. With each run you get to see how much you can get away with pushing the envelope. Giving the pro one run and expecting them to out perform a decent driver that has a fair amount of seat time is probably not realistic. 2-3 runs will get you a good run, 4-5 pro runs will get you a run that could equal the timea that a good