Challenge Town Hall extended - Concour feedback

In reply to Robbie :

I get that it can be used strategically for people who knowingly choose to build/bring 'bottom-half' concours cars to be somewhat more competitive, and you've got to give people something to get them to give up being judged...But leave that to the genuine 'bottom-half' cars. If it really requires that much effort to build a dynamic top-5 competitive car, especially at half budget, I would expect there is easily enough innovation and execution combined that a decently well executed presentation should still be able to net at least 13 points.  Which means that for any such competitors it is indeed still "giving up" points, and therefore possibly finishing position and trophies, completely regardless to whether it's mid-pack or an 'effective zero'. 

Or am I mistaken and a low-effort Miata, meaning less than 7 combined between innovation and execution from a 5 presentation, can also reasonably expect to be in the top 5 after the dynamic events?  

In reply to Robbie :

Yes, but I think Driven5’s point still stands. 

Nobody bringing a top 3 finishing car would “take the 12”. This is an option less competitive teams would be more likely to take. 

Spin_out made a strategic error. He underestimated the strength of his team competitively in the event format for this specific year.  They are really strong autocrossers. With no drags, they had completely different odds than in a normal year. 

I admire the desire to be a “nice guy” and be considerate of the judges.  But this was the year you should have brought all the competitiveness you could muster.

Every team’s strategy is different. 

The dynamic score this year is skewed. 

With no drags, great autocrossers scored terrific dynamic times.  That would be different in a normal year. 

I'm currently talking with Wreck about a seminar-ish thing at the event next year to help explain how they go about things and how that knowledge can be used by anyone to do better. I think the concourse is important for a variety of reasons and a better understanding of why they do what they do and how should be useful for the community and the magazine as they search for editorial content. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

I'm currently talking with Wreck about a seminar-ish thing at the event next year to help explain how they go about things and how that knowledge can be used by anyone to do better. I think the concourse is important for a variety of reasons and a better understanding of why they do what they do and how should be useful for the community and the magazine as they search for editorial content. 

This event is really the asylum run by the inmates, so getting Wreck Racing to help the entire field is a very philantrhopic move. Good job, Seth.

Robbie said:

In reply to Driven5 :

The point you are missing is that 'taking the 12' is not supposed to be giving anything up. It is supposed to be (and was last year), a respectable mid-pack concour score, and many miatas scored less than 12. So they decided to take the 12 as an actual strategic move, that also happens to help out the judges.

The point of 'taking the 12' was that it was offered at first to reduce load on the judges. Everyone wants to be judged, so in order to get someone to opt out you have to give them something good, you have to make it strategically beneficial to them. Last year the 12 was a good concour score. This year, the 12 was an effective 0, and we didn't know that until after the final results came out.

Exactly.  Thank you

Depends on who you are. 

“Taking the 12” was always giving something up if you were Andrew Nelson, or Wreck Racing, or Team Gutty. 

No matter how you want to look at it, "taking the 12" will be a gamble. But a poor one at best. It can only help mid-pack and lower finishers.  Not those at the top. 

If everyone that is sure they will score lower than 12 takes the "Do Not Judge Me" option, does that mean that the judges should score the judged vehicles lower than they would otherwise?  If not, how do you guarantee that 12 is a mid-pack score?

I still don't see how this is such a big deal. 12 will never get you to the podium. 

SVreX said:

In reply to Robbie :

Yes, but I think Driven5’s point still stands. 

Nobody bringing a top 3 finishing car would “take the 12”. This is an option less competitive teams would be more likely to take. 

Spin_out made a strategic error. He underestimated the strength of his team competitively in the event format for this specific year.  They are really strong autocrossers. With no drags, they had completely different odds than in a normal year. 

I admire the desire to be a “nice guy” and be considerate of the judges.  But this was the year you should have brought all the competitiveness you could muster.

Every team’s strategy is different. 

Wow Paul, It hurt me to read this.  People don't take the 12 for strategy.   As Robbie stated The 12 was meant to give you a little something to help out the judges.  Never to be a penalty of -1 for trying to be a team player and help out GRM.  We even asked for car #12 to support GRM's idea of asking us to take the 12.   (I know Mr. Nelson started the post but it was a request from GRM.) 

Paul you gave cars scores of less then 12 because they were.  That did not happen this year.  How could you not understand?   You know, Andy reminded me of the year the results spreadsheet had errors, but it did not effect me so I took it in stride.  But I bet the people affected remember that year clearly.  I think Echo echo echo was asked to return a $1,000 check.  I would rather miss out on a trophy than return $1,000 so I guess I got off easy?

(P.S. On a completely unrelated subject.  Paul bring a car next year and let's have a little side wager.  Like winner gets to pick losers signature.)

In reply to spin_out :

Haha!  I’m pretty certain you’d win any side wager with me- I’ll be building something with 13 year olds. But I’ll certainly play if you’d like (because I think you are one of the most fair and decent guys who comes)

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings- certainly not my intent. But honestly, you are confusing me. 

You chose to “take the 12” for very decent and honorable reasons. Those reasons still exist, and I respect your choice. Why has your position changed when you suddenly realized you’re car could have been competitive?

Taking the 12 was NEVER a promise of a mid pack finish. There has always been the possibility of judges that were more lenient, or more strict. 

It has always been a penalty for a top contender. I could never do it, I’m too competitive. Which is why I admire your choice to do it. 

I really hope you can find the ability to let it wash off your back and be content with the choices you made for the reasons you made them. They are good reasons. Don’t be concerned that they cost you strategically. That’s just looking backwards. 

...and you’re right. People don’t “take the 12” for strategic reasons. 

They choose to NOT take the 12 for strategic reasons. 

I wouldn’t do it because I am pretty good at the Concours, and I am convinced that it is the one area a team of high school kids could probably do pretty well at.

But you’ve ALWAYS beaten me in the General Tire Challenge. I can’t autocross like you. 

Huuuhuh-huhhuh-huh-huh. “Taking the 12.”

spin_out said:

Paul you gave cars scores of less then 12 because they were.  That did not happen this year.  How could you not understand? 

I did score cars below 12 this year, so it could/did happen. The averages that everyone sees negated some of my lower scores.

Ok Paul.  No side bet.  If I won I was going to make you say something derogatory about the Mumpkin, so wise choice.

In reply to spin_out :

Haha!

I already said I would. 

For 2019 the Georgia Tech Wreck Racing team has agreed to put on a short seminar of sorts on how to concourse. They're good at this. 

My hope is to figure out how to schedule it for Friday evening so that I can provide a pizza dinner (bribe) for the team, but that will be up in the air until much closer to the event. Mark you calendars. 

In reply to spin_out :

Wow I didn't realize you guys were half budget. I also respect your decision but doubt I could have done the same.  I think in some ways that says you're a better man than I. 

This is a good thread, anyone competing needs to understand that the Overall win can be won or lost in the Concours.  We won BOTH autocrosses outright, and we just barely won overall to Wreck.  We also had, what I would say is, one of the coolest/prettiest/craziest cars...and we still got beat by 2 other cars in the Concours.

After reading this thread it's clear  we could have had a better presentation.

3 minutes is really hard to try and cram an entire presentation into, so if you wanna win, take notes from those giving good advice in here.

Also be aware that there is going to be subjective judging...they aren't robots. A solid setup for how the judging should take place is on GRM, but other than that, you have humans with differing points of view handing out points.

Circuit_Motorsports said:

3 minutes is really hard to try and cram an entire presentation into, so if you wanna win, take notes from those giving good advice in here.

Also be aware that there is going to be subjective judging...they aren't robots. A solid setup for how the judging should take place is on GRM, but other than that, you have humans with differing points of view handing out points.

QFT

How about after judging take the highest recieved score and the lowest  and average them for the opt out? Kinda makes it a bigger gamble because you wont know your score too.

Personally i doubt my entry will score well unless theres extra points for how brown the car is so i have no real dinosaur in this orgy

In reply to Antihero :

It has been pointed out that if all the low scoring cars opt out they'd receive the average score of all the high scoring cars.

In reply to Antihero :

The idea is to get people to opt out before​​​judging, so as to reduce the workload on the judges. 

hobiercr said:

Circuit_Motorsports said:

3 minutes is really hard to try and cram an entire presentation into, so if you wanna win, take notes from those giving good advice in here.

Also be aware that there is going to be subjective judging...they aren't robots. A solid setup for how the judging should take place is on GRM, but other than that, you have humans with differing points of view handing out points.

QFT

For those of us who are not "IN", quoted from Wikipedia: " Quoted For Truth, internet slang when a person strongly agrees with another"

Driven5 said:

In reply to Antihero :

The idea is to get people to opt out before​​​judging, so as to reduce the workload on the judges. 

Absolutely, before judging starts you either choose to opt out or get judged. You cant choose afterwards or during.

Stampie said:

In reply to Antihero :

It has been pointed out that if all the low scoring cars opt out they'd receive the average score of all the high scoring cars.

True, but still you are rolling the dice. Opt out os safe but you are guaranteed not to win then