Cheap horsepower or snake oil?

pjbgravely wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote: I was never one for grounding kits... but have seen some gains in well documented articles... but most often the kit are not nearly as nice a fit as OEM. As curtis73 suggests you might just add a few grounds yourself.

Adding extra grounds can cause problems too. For every ground loop, current will flow through that loop and induce voltages. A single low resistance ground path is best and will have no ground loop current. I personally would replace the existing engine ground wire with a new copper cable on clean bolts with star washers.

LOL wut?

I'm an EE. What you're saying simply makes no sense. Increasing the number of paths to ground does not create "ground loops" or "induce voltages." It simply lowers the impedance to ground due to parallel paths. Go read Ohm's law and then get back to me.

I am but a humble electrician but we do a lot of installs that prevent ground loop noise. An isolated ground system had a separate ground wire that goes from the equipment to the main panels ground point with no looping connections to prevent noise.

Older vehicles were probably immune to this because the DC doesn't induce voltages. Newer vehicles have a lot of fast acting devices ( sensors, injectors) that can simulate AC and cause electrical noise.

I read this interesting experience in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords about 12 years ago:

They were dyno testing (on an engine dyno), a 331 SBF stroker engine. I think they were trying to demonstrate the advantages of a true "Balance & Blueprint " engine build vs just assembling parts, but it was a long time ago, and I would could be wrong.

Anyway, at some point in the testing they changed the motor oil to demonstrate that fresh oil does in fact have a measurable power increase. They drained out some name brand conventional oil and refilled it with Redline synthetic oil, and everyone, including the engine builder & dyno operator, were shocked to see an 11 HP jump on the first pull.

The article didn't seem to be an ad for Redline, but who knows? I'd be willing to try it on a race engine.

pjbgravely wrote: I am but a humble electrician but we do a lot of installs that prevent ground loop noise. An isolated ground system had a separate ground wire that goes from the equipment to the main panels ground point with no looping connections to prevent noise. Older vehicles were probably immune to this because the DC doesn't induce voltages. Newer vehicles have a lot of fast acting devices ( sensors, injectors) that can simulate AC and cause electrical noise.

Your link is invalid in this case. It is referring to buildings that have multiple grounds. (Something which I deal with on a daily basis.) However, there is only a single ground on a car: the chassis. You are also referring to noise. This has nothing to do with the number of paths to ground. The way to reduce noise in a single ground reference system (like a car) is to decrease the impedance to ground, period. Additional paths/bonds to ground reduces the impedance, and thus reduces the noise. It does not create "ground loops," and it does not "induce voltages." In fact, the "ground loops" that the link you cited are referring to are caused by grounds being at different potential, something which bonding all ground planes together with additional bonding/grounding wires solves.

There are very few things on a car that will produce noise in the first place: the alternator and ignition system are basically the only culprits. The way to reduce their contribution to noise is to decrease their impedance to chassis/ground.

Again, the number of paths to ground has nothing to do with noise.

pjbgravely wrote: I am but a humble electrician but we do a lot of installs that prevent ground loop noise. An isolated ground system had a separate ground wire that goes from the equipment to the main panels ground point with no looping connections to prevent noise. Older vehicles were probably immune to this because the DC doesn't induce voltages. Newer vehicles have a lot of fast acting devices ( sensors, injectors) that can simulate AC and cause electrical noise.

It's greatly attenuated but there is a definite AC ripple in the "DC" system. This is before you get the ringback effects from all sorts of different solenoids and stuff working at the same time.

Cars have very noisy electrical systems, even when everything is working correctly. And when things aren't working correctly... hoo boy I got STORIES

The AC noise in a car's DC electrical system is also caused by harmonics from the alternator. Speed-compensated volume in a car's stereo works by sensing the engine RPM based on those harmonics in the stereo's power supply.

HappyAndy wrote: I read this interesting experience in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords about 12 years ago: They were dyno testing (on an engine dyno), a 331 SBF stroker engine. I think they were trying to demonstrate the advantages of a true "Balance & Blueprint " engine build vs just assembling parts, but it was a long time ago, and I would could be wrong. Anyway, at some point in the testing they changed the motor oil to demonstrate that fresh oil does in fact have a measurable power increase. They drained out some name brand conventional oil and refilled it with Redline synthetic oil, and everyone, including the engine builder & dyno operator, were shocked to see an 11 HP jump on the first pull. The article didn't seem to be an ad for Redline, but who knows? I'd be willing to try it on a race engine.

Interesting... I was just speaking(past 48 hours or so) to a person who builds race cars for a living... they found removing the Redline... and using Joe Gibbs oils was an increase in power....

I also have a Japanese tuner mag on the 4AG... and they found oils could account for as much as 4% improvement

Sky_Render wrote: The AC noise in a car's DC electrical system is also caused by harmonics from the alternator. Speed-compensated volume in a car's stereo works by sensing the engine RPM based on those harmonics in the stereo's power supply.

Not the ones I'm familiar with. They all get vehicle speed information from the PCM via one of the CAN buses.

This is why your kid shoving pennies into the CD player slot can cause a no click no crank situation. Penny shorts the bus internally, PCM can't get anti-theft information from the BCM (serial bus, opposite ends of the system), and it refuses to engage anything.

Knurled wrote:

Sky_Render wrote: The AC noise in a car's DC electrical system is also caused by harmonics from the alternator. Speed-compensated volume in a car's stereo works by sensing the engine RPM based on those harmonics in the stereo's power supply.

Not the ones I'm familiar with. They all get vehicle speed information from the PCM via one of the CAN buses. This is why your kid shoving pennies into the CD player slot can cause a no click no crank situation. Penny shorts the bus internally, PCM can't get anti-theft information from the BCM (serial bus, opposite ends of the system), and it refuses to engage anything.

Every work with aftermarket ones? Most aftermarket radios (JVC, Pioneer, Alpine, etc.) sense the frequency on the power circuit. They don't (usually) have access to the speed sensor or CANBUS.

Nope, never worked with aftermarket ones. That's interesting to know!