Big news on the local morning news that Fiat-Chrysler and PSA signed a 50-50 merger agreement to make the 4th largest car company.
I'm still digesting this, as it makes two main European car makers- VW and this new company. GM isn't there, and Ford's sales can't match this company.
Fiat really hasn't penetrated the US, and Chrysler just plods along mostly with Jeep. Will PSA bring cars here?
And I have no real feel for how this company is doing in China.
So whatever happened to Ford of England and Ford of Germany?
Would have to dig into the product line to see if there's anything that might sell here, although I believe the Buick Regal and Tour-X are GM-Opel relics and despite being decent cars, have never sold very well here.
To my mind, the best outcome here is that the Peugeot, Citroen, and Opel lines are harvested for the best of what they produce and it's used to reinvigorate the Chrysler lineup. Sure, I'd love to see more Euro brands selling here, but given the Fiat/Alfa experience thus far has reinforced the idea that Americans are put off by reputations earned decades ago, it seems unlikely to end well.
I recall the Dodge had at least one French-derived (Renault, I believe) platform in their lineup some time ago: the Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier (remember Eagle?). My mother had one. It wasn't a bad car at all, but the transmission was not fond of remaining functional and intact.
spitfirebill said:So whatever happened to Ford of England and Ford of Germany?
That died out a while ago. The plan now is One Ford, and it's basically a global operation, with different vehicles in different parts of the world when needed. Ford of England vs. Ford of Germany hasn't been a thing since the late-80's to my knowledge.
02Pilot said:To my mind, the best outcome here is that the Peugeot, Citroen, and Opel lines are harvested for the best of what they produce and it's used to reinvigorate the Chrysler lineup. Sure, I'd love to see more Euro brands selling here, but given the Fiat/Alfa experience thus far has reinforced the idea that Americans are put off by reputations earned decades ago, it seems unlikely to end well.
I recall the Dodge had at least one French-derived (Renault, I believe) platform in their lineup some time ago: the Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier (remember Eagle?). My mother had one. It wasn't a bad car at all, but the transmission was not fond of remaining functional and intact.
MoPar inherited some French engineering via the purchase of AMC which had been managed by Renault. The LH cars got longitudinal V6 installation design from the Renault 25 based Eagle Premier.
It seems to me that nearly everything at the ChryCo side of the house, outside of Jeeps and Ram, are pretty old products compared to the rest of the market segments they fight in. Oddly it seems to work in some cases (Challenger) but maybe not others. Hopefully something changes here. It always seems like Sergio M's big plan was to eventually wind down a lot of the American product lines.
spitfirebill said:So whatever happened to Ford of England and Ford of Germany?
We are still there, but on a relative basis, not really a comparison with VW and this new company's total.
02Pilot said:To my mind, the best outcome here is that the Peugeot, Citroen, and Opel lines are harvested for the best of what they produce and it's used to reinvigorate the Chrysler lineup. Sure, I'd love to see more Euro brands selling here, but given the Fiat/Alfa experience thus far has reinforced the idea that Americans are put off by reputations earned decades ago, it seems unlikely to end well.
I recall the Dodge had at least one French-derived (Renault, I believe) platform in their lineup some time ago: the Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier (remember Eagle?). My mother had one. It wasn't a bad car at all, but the transmission was not fond of remaining functional and intact.
That was supposed to happen with Fiat platforms. They even tried- the same platform for the European modern Giulietta (I think) was the Dodge Dart. I'm not sure that Chrysler will keep trying that idea.
I wouldn't be surprised if they do keep trying to use underpinnings from Europe to build American cars as I don't see ChryCo product holding sway over Euro options.
alfadriver said:That was supposed to happen with Fiat platforms. They even tried- the same platform for the European modern Giulietta (I think) was the Dodge Dart.
That might be the saddest statement I've ever read. If they can suck the life out of an Alfa Giulietta there's no hope for them. Might as well just light the place on fire and pave over the smoldering wreckage.
First, isn't Opel basically GM of Germany? Did GM divest themselves of the German stepchild? They still own Vauxhall, don't they?
Second, if anybody thinks a shiny Italian or French sedan is going to solve the issues of Mother Mopar here, I fear you may not understand the beauty that is a French car, or Italian reliability.
Third, I thought Puke-Eau had been tied up with Chrysler back in the 80's or so. The inherited Renault when they absorbed AMC, but I specifically remember aggravated Chrysler parts people sighing when I would ask them for parts for a 504.
I can't wait to see what terrible badge engineering comes from this. Maybe we'll see another offshoot of the K-Car.
3rd largest car company, not 4th
I haven't given up on a Citroen C4 Hellcactus yet.
Streetwiseguy said:First, isn't Opel basically GM of Germany? Did GM divest themselves of the German stepchild? They still own Vauxhall, don't they?
Second, if anybody thinks a shiny Italian or French sedan is going to solve the issues of Mother Mopar here, I fear you may not understand the beauty that is a French car, or Italian reliability.
Third, I thought Puke-Eau had been tied up with Chrysler back in the 80's or so. The inherited Renault when they absorbed AMC, but I specifically remember aggravated Chrysler parts people sighing when I would ask them for parts for a 504.
GM sold off Vauxhall and Opel to PSA in the last couple years.
I don't know that Peugeot was ever tied to Chrysler here. Maybe you dealt with a dealer that sold both under one roof?
So, many of the world's most unreliable brands joined forces, and somehow theres an expectation of a well regarded vehicle with a competitive interior being produced for attainable sums of money?
No doubt there will be some physically attractive designs that make the right sounds, but that will be overshadowed with abnormal failure rates and the resulting high repair costs. Ie...Alpha Romeo...the car you'd love to own...if only it worked.
Would be cool to be wrong and have some unique vehicles come to the US market as a result of this merger.
jde said:Streetwiseguy said:First, isn't Opel basically GM of Germany? Did GM divest themselves of the German stepchild? They still own Vauxhall, don't they?
Second, if anybody thinks a shiny Italian or French sedan is going to solve the issues of Mother Mopar here, I fear you may not understand the beauty that is a French car, or Italian reliability.
Third, I thought Puke-Eau had been tied up with Chrysler back in the 80's or so. The inherited Renault when they absorbed AMC, but I specifically remember aggravated Chrysler parts people sighing when I would ask them for parts for a 504.
GM sold off Vauxhall and Opel to PSA in the last couple years.
I don't know that Peugeot was ever tied to Chrysler here. Maybe you dealt with a dealer that sold both under one roof?
Specifically, GM sold of Vauxhall and Opel to PSA in 2017.
And PSA did acquire Chrysler Europe in 1978.
(some interesting reading- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupe_PSA)
The new company will be known as Fiat and Peugot, aka FaP.
I'll show myself out.
TGMF said:
No doubt there will be some physically attractive designs that make the right sounds, but that will be overshadowed with abnormal failure rates and the resulting high repair costs. Ie...Alpha Romeo...
Alfa...
mr2s2000elise said:3rd largest car company, not 4th
3rd or 4th doesn't matter, on their way down for sure.
mr2s2000elise said:3rd largest car company, not 4th
News is reporting 4th.
(why can't I paste a link? Forbs, Detroit News, etc all reporting 4th)
If you throw a cinder block into a lake it will sink. Tying several cinder blocks together will not change this outcome.
1988RedT2 said:If you throw a cinder block into a lake it will sink. Tying several cinder blocks together will not change this outcome.
Until the pile is big enough to break the surface?
Serious point. I've lived here for 25 years. I still don't fully understand the American perception that all European brands are basically unreliable. I think it must be something to do with how people over here buy, use and service vehicles. Yes, Fiat, Lotus and some others were known as unreliable, but your average British, French or German cars were just cars. People bought them, drove them and kept them for years. I'm not talking wealthy people who could pay for everything, I'm talking normal middle class and blue collar people. The cars didn't cost a fortune to buy, own and maintain, but as soon as I moved here everything British or French was seen as a ticking time bomb. I still don't get it. And before people start making Lucas prince of darkness jokes, 90% of those can be cured by keeping the fuel filter clean and maintaining your points and condenser. Just don't tell people as it ruins a perfectly good meme industry. Yes your average 70's LBC car has issues, but let's talk about your average malaise era land yatch with miles and miles of old vacuum lines under the hood. I'd wager they were no better.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Simple answer - from the dawn of the Model T well into the 1990’s most people had their cars repaired at either the dealership where they bought it, or the local gas station mechanic. Those gas station mechanics didn’t have the benefit of trade schools or factory certifications - at most they had an auto mechanics class or 2 in high school. So anything “furrin” that showed up was outside of their scope of knowledge, without any easily reached resources to help them learn about it. This is especially true once you got outside of the big cities - at least in many cities there were a handful of specialists who’d learned & worked on foreign cars in their homeland. Out in the more rural areas though that rarely happened.
So that left a significant portion of the US population with the stigma that anything foreign was junk, which didn’t really begin to change much(from what I personally saw) until well into the 1990’s.
The other factor was WWII vets who returned from war with hostility towards their former enemy that never really subsided, and in relation to cars, often got passed down to their children/grandchildren.
In regards to British cars specifically, at least anyplace I’ve lived they’ve always been an oddity, with very few ever sold.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, the tie-up makes a lot of sense.
FCA:
PSA:
Think of it this way: PSA's 2008/3008/5008 SUVs being branded as Dodges and replacing crap like the dead-on-the-vine Journey. Peugeot's EV platforms proliferating. Fiat/Ram commercial products being sold through PSA dealer network. Etc, etc..
They will have some tough questions to answer as far as brand overlap. Lancia will surely be the first to go. Vauxhall is basically redundant and with Brexit all but sure at this point is basically a money pit for PSA. Alfa and Maserati have little reason to exist alongside each other aside from vague notions of brand legacy. The independent existence of Chrysler and Dodge is a giant question mark as well.
Also, few people realize that Fiat is all but dead as a passenger vehicle manufacturer in Europe. Most of their business is commercial these days. So PSA, who has major passenger car volume in Europe, is actually filling a niche quite well in this merger.
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