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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/19/12 5:22 p.m.

If I were king of the FIA, I'd set a displacement limit (with boost multiplier), minimum weight and size restrictions. Keep the driver safety regs and no refuelling too, partly because I like what having the dramatically changing fuel load does to the cars.

Historically, F1 has had some oddball ideas that simply wouldn't be allowed today, when discussions of the difference between a slot and hole are more common than discussions of how many wheels the cars should have!

I love the idea of DRS, it's active aero like you see on road cars. I just don't the complex limitation of when it's allowed to be used.

However, I'd also love to see some longer races. Throw in some 1000 km runs. Of course, that's one thing that has been pretty consistent over the decades. But if we're putting video game DRS devices in, let's see how they do over a longer distance.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy SuperDork
11/19/12 7:46 p.m.

Wanna fix F1? Have a set of sprinklers surrounding each track. 30 minutes before green flag, flip a coin to determine dry, damp or wet and set the sprinklers as required.

calteg
calteg Reader
11/19/12 7:50 p.m.

Spent all 3 days at the track, my first F1 event. The racing seemed overly artificial and the result of bad politics. Looking forward to MotoGP much more.

Supercoupe
Supercoupe HalfDork
11/19/12 8:28 p.m.

I was there for the support event, HGP, we had the McLaren M23. Only drove around the track on the golf cart though. We had a problem with the swirl pot springing a fracture at a weld and didn't get to run it Friday for the test and tune. Tigged up the leaky welds and got it out for Saturdays qualifier and found we had a dead cylinder due to an ignition issue. Found and corrected that but didn't have time to change the gears, could have used a little more on the top end, but all in all it was great. My boss was extremely happy we were able to get the water leak repaired and get him on the track for Saturday. Had fun at the fanfest area, got totally wasted at the hotel bar and now I'm driving back home and stopped in Stanton, TN for the night. He bought us tickets for the F1 event, first one I've ever been to and I thought it was great, we were on T15. He says we'll be back next year if they run the HGP event there again.

bmw88rider
bmw88rider New Reader
11/19/12 8:35 p.m.

I know as a local, My money is being spent on Some Aussie Supercar action. I was never able to get into the F1.

I did get a chance to meet the Caterham team at work last week. That was cool. Overall, I'm glad everything went well and It's another good event to add to the busy Austin calender.

grafmiata
grafmiata Dork
11/19/12 10:04 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: I love the idea of DRS, it's active aero like you see on road cars. I just don't the complex limitation of when it's allowed to be used.

I agree. Maybe make it like the Push-to-Pass that CART and Indy-car have used.

The drivers can use it at whatever part of the track that they feel gives them the most benefit, but they only have a set amount of time that they can use it over the course of the race.

As I type this, I kinda don't like my idea, but at least it puts a little bit more in the drivers' hands.

""

carguy123
carguy123 PowerDork
11/19/12 10:40 p.m.
grafmiata wrote: < Maybe make it like the "Push-to-Pass" that CART and Indy-car have used. The drivers can use it at whatever part of the track that they feel gives them the most benefit, but they only have a set amount of time that they can use it over the course of the race.

You just described KERS

grafmiata
grafmiata Dork
11/19/12 10:55 p.m.
carguy123 wrote:
grafmiata wrote: < Maybe make it like the "Push-to-Pass" that CART and Indy-car have used. The drivers can use it at whatever part of the track that they feel gives them the most benefit, but they only have a set amount of time that they can use it over the course of the race.
You just described KERS

Yeah, but I was talking about the DRS... Let the driver decide where on the track he wants to use it, just like KERS. If we're going to have systems lime these, then at least allow the driver to make the decision where to use them.

Obviously, they can do that with the KERS. But allowing them free-reign with the DRS could lead to some pretty interesting differences is car set-ups. Again, putting things back in the hands of the driver.

codrus
codrus Reader
11/20/12 12:47 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: So lower drag is only effective if it's allowed on a long straight? What about a shorter one? Why is it only a benefit to the competition on a drag strip? Seems to me it should be treated like KERS, something for the driver to use when he thinks it will help. If the goal is to let trailing drivers catch up, then just make it available anytime you're not actually in P1.

Passing in F1 suffers from two problems -- The first is that if you get too close to the guy in front of you, then you're in his "dirty air" and your aero works less efficiently. Less downforce, less cornering speed, and you come out of the corner onto the straight too far behind him to get an effective tow or to be able to pass on braking. The second is that with the amount of downforce they generate and the carbon-carbon brakes, they can brake at 5Gs. This drastically shortens the braking zone length, making it so short that driving skill and better braking isn't enough to pull off a pass.

The latter might be fixable by messing with the brake rules, but I think they're reluctant to do too much of that for safety reasons. DRS is designed to address the former.

So the reason why it's only allowed when you are less than 1 second behind is because it's not designed to allow slower cars to catch up -- it's designed to counteract the loss of downforce that you get from being too close. You come out of the corner onto the straight further back because you couldn't follow as closely, but you get extra speed to make up for it. They frequently fiddle with the lengths of the DRS zones to try to get it "just right". The goal is to let drivers who are faster pass cars in front of them, if they work for it and deserve it.

The change they're making to DRS for next year is that it will only be allowed during qualifying (and practice) in the same DRS zone as in the race. This is to prevent it from being optimized as a qualifying aid, at the expense of a passing aid.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson SuperDork
11/20/12 6:39 a.m.

I have no issue with KERS, it's just like over boost from the turbo (glory?) days of F1 and CART. DRS is allowed anywhere in quali, but I can understand them not allowing that in the race. One the whole I think it should go, but it has had one important effect on the racing. I think for years the F1 drivers have known it's almost impossible to pass due to dirty air, I think giving them the DRS has re-awakend them to the possibility of passing. We've seen far more non DRS passing in the last 2 seasons than before as well as DRS.

I think this weekend has really showed the advantage of reducing grip. I think they need to take further strides to reduce the aero grip in the rules, not the mechanical grip.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson SuperDork
11/20/12 6:41 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: If I were king of the FIA, I'd set a displacement limit (with boost multiplier), minimum weight and size restrictions. Keep the driver safety regs and no refuelling too, partly because I like what having the dramatically changing fuel load does to the cars. .

In the old days that would have been possible, but now they have to have further controls. Technology and the understanding of aero would allow any of the teams, even the back markers, to build a car so fast that no human could stay awake with that zero rule set.

Many many years ago I wrote my draft F1 rules on another forum, I'll go and see if I can find them

tpwalsh
tpwalsh Reader
11/20/12 7:48 a.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Agreed. If you could ban aero devices entirely(which I think is completely impossible) then have a minimum weight, and maximum displacement, then that could get really interesting.

wbjones
wbjones UltraDork
11/20/12 10:10 a.m.

for any that missed it ... Speed is re-broadcasting the race at noon

vwcorvette
vwcorvette Dork
11/20/12 10:18 a.m.
tpwalsh wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Agreed. If you could ban aero devices entirely(which I think is completely impossible) then have a minimum weight, and maximum displacement, then that could get really interesting.

Wouldn't this be Formula Vee then?

I am okay so long as there is racing. Thankfully no lockouts like in hockey!

tpwalsh
tpwalsh Reader
11/20/12 10:53 a.m.

Yes, only unlimited suspension and nearly unlimited motor, so everything fv is, just without the utter slownesd

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/20/12 11:07 a.m.

I understand why DRS exists, but that doesn't mean I should like it

Why is it only allowed in certain zones? If it's to counteract the effect of dirty air, there's dirty air everywhere. So just make it available any time you're within 1 second of the car in front. And make it available right from the start, might prevent the usual big gap to P1 that we see develop in the first few laps as it will be available to almost everyone except him.

If it's beneficial for the teams to develop aero that will work in dirty air so they can pass someone, seems to me that would be a priority. Give up some maximum aero for more consistent aero? I expect that was tried and failed. NASCAR has aero that works up close, what are they doing differently?

As for the "too fast for humans", allow driver aids (boo goes the crowd). Would modern military aircraft be as interesting if fly-by-wire and computer control was banned? Let F1 be the realm of supermen.

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
11/20/12 11:17 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: NASCAR has aero that works up close, what are they doing differently?

Not exactly. They still have to deal with "aero push".

but there's a big difference when you are talking a single rounded edge body acting together and a series of wings.

I'm still hoping that the reduction in aero that will be required to keep under the fuel flow window and finish a race will result in closer racing. But we will see.

I'd also like to see them use metal brakes. The rest of the racing world manages to run them safely, so F1 should be able to. increase braking distances + add some care/abuse factor into it would help passing quite a bit.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH PowerDork
11/20/12 11:36 a.m.

I like the "limited DRS time available for use anywhere" idea. Less gimmicky and gives the driver more control.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson SuperDork
11/20/12 12:27 p.m.

Found it, this is what I posted back in 2005, my views on somethings have changed, not on others.

Engine
1. Normally aspirated only
2. 3L max, this is to prevent torque monsters and keep things high revving, see next rule for explanation
3. Maximum inlet restrictor. Standard part supplied by FIA (or whoever run's the show). This can effectively let you pick your power. Size it to cap power at say 800 hp. Limiting to 3L capacity stops people building 10L big block that only rev to 5,000 rpm to negate this rule. The restriction can go anywhere prior to throttle bodies, but there must be no air inlet paths after it. If someone can build a gazillion liter holding tank into the car to get a momentary increase in the available air without killing the aero. package fine.I may make it smaller than 3.0L these days
4. One extra point if the same engine last the whole weekend, one point deducted if more than two engines are used in one weekend. No engine changes during the race.Maybe make the 1 extra point for every weekend it's used after 2 or soemthing
5. Fuel, 98 Ron unleaded. Samples checked by FIA at every event. Quantity unrestricted. Refueling by gravity at ambient temperature only.No in race re-fuling no. Don't forget I wrote this in 05

Electronics.
1. Free with the exception that they must use a standard wiring loom/harness, this is available in any number of cylinders the team asks for. It would have standard terminals to mate with whatever sensors and control unit the team wishes. This would help limit but not eradicate driver aids without stopping electronic development. These harnesses could be handed out (with spares) at each event.
2. Telemetry free.

Gearboxes.
1. Semi automatic, max seven gears (plus reverse) but the driver must select each gear. No pre-programmed up or down shift schedules.
2. No CVT's or torque converters

Aerodynamics
1. Flat floor with a minimum ground clearance measured statically when the car is riding on those solid pit/transport wheels, this takes the variable of tire wear or inflation out of it. Obviously these wheels must be the same diameter as the nominal installed diameter of the tires, this will have to be determined and signed off prior to each event. All tires of different compound would have to be from the same mould.No stepped floors, totaly flat in a single plane from the front wheel center to the rear wheel center. Rear defuse must only curve in one plane except for sides which must be totaly vertical. No double defusers, no DRS, no double DRS no air flaps, no air switches nothing
2. From the center line of the car moving outwards the bodywork may only shape out or down, with the exception of the front and rear wing. This will eliminate winglets, barge boards etc. No part of the body may project below the flat floor. There is a max and min stated radius for the transition between the body and the flat floor. To allow for a raised nose there could also be a max and min radius for that, the important thing is little aero devise can start protruding from it. Some sort of exception is also needed for trailing edges and inlets/openings. These could be specified as a max/min radius with a max number of degrees of arc and limits on distance from the edge of panels.
3 Front and rear wing to have a maximum surface area, not just a plan area. If teams want to make wings that are not in a single plane when viewed from the front fine, as it the surface area that's limited. They may also have as many elements as they whish, but the combined surface area is the same. If they use multi element wings all elements must be within 10% overall width and surface area of each other (front and rear are independent of this). This will effectively limit winglets and mean all elements are full width.
4. End plate max area and must be completely flat.
5. There would have to be some carefully written wording for the mounting structures to prevent teams from using wing mounts as a method of circumnavigating rules 2 & 3.

Brakes
1. Max swept area is the only physical limitation.
2. No brake or pad changes during the race.

Wheels tires, the intent is slicks with much more mechanical grip.
1. Minimum four, maximum six wheels
2. Maximum tire tread surface area to be divided between each end of the car as they like. Think of a cylinder surface area. You can run tall narrow or short wide, probably the later. Whatever the teams and tire companies can agree on. Side to side the car must be the same, compound size etc
3. Any tire company must supply at least two teams. These teams must use engines from different manufactures.
4. Tire changes and qualifying tires free, but put a nominal cap of 24 tires per car per weekend to stop it getting too silly, rain excluded from this.

Suspension.
1. Metallic coil springs are the only allowed spring medium. Anti roll or stabilizer bars are excluded from this, but they must not have any effective bump/rebound rate except in roll.
2. Specify a maximum effective mechanical wheel rate of the spring. This is to stop people getting too creative with infinitely stiff springs and just using the tires or compliance in other components as the spring medium.
3. No active method of changing ride height in motion. Sure the aero package will compress the suspension, but this is limited by the down force. Also the # of parameters in the standard loom prevent active control.
4. Self contained dampers. This means no electronic, mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic etc inputs that could give active control. This does not limit remote reservoirs

Other.
1. Minimum weight obviously
2. Certain improved crash standards with a limit to the number of times a season you can change your tub or aero package.
3. Chassis and aero package must be homologated three weeks prior to it first race. If your not ready tough, run last weeks vehicle.
4. Qualifying is a one hour free for all. I know it could get a bit boring for live TV with 30 mins of no one on track. I loved the old method, it was the strategy thing again, watching track/ weather conditions and trying to get out for the best conditions but on an empty track. You can re-fuel after qualifying as well. No car can exit the pits if another car is within a certain distance of the start/finish. N warm up or slow down lap can be slower than 90% of the cars qualifying time or the qualifying time gets modified accordingly. This stops someone trying to hold up other people. Forget this, I now love the current qualy system
5. With the exception of rain a max of four pit stops per car. This is meant to be a race, not a series of qualifying laps after all. But if you can make the whole race without stopping great.
6. I'll keep the no tire change with re-fueling as that will make it interesting. What's better, light fuel and make the tires last or heavy fuel and keep changing tires. If you get a flat tire on your fuel in lap tough you should have come in a lap earlier, or you'll just have to go around again.No refueling, too dangerouse

It's interesting to try an put this lot in words. I've watched F1 since around 1980 and I've had many conversations with my father and other people over the years as to what I would or wouldn't do If I were crowned Grand F1 Puba. What seems simple and straight forward in you head is a whole lot more difficult to express in 'rule' form, even when it's just a fun informal way like this. The truth is actually writing rules for the most expensive, high stakes sport in the world has got to be a tough job.

chuckles
chuckles Reader
11/20/12 3:32 p.m.

The track is for rent for private track days, ambulances, corner workers and all. $50,000. 24 cars.

nderwater
nderwater UberDork
11/20/12 3:59 p.m.

Schumi is secretly a ninja.

codrus
codrus Reader
11/20/12 5:17 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: Why is it only allowed in certain zones? If it's to counteract the effect of dirty air, there's dirty air everywhere. So just make it available any time you're within 1 second of the car in front. And make it available right from the start, might prevent the usual big gap to P1 that we see develop in the first few laps as it will be available to almost everyone except him. If it's beneficial for the teams to develop aero that will work in dirty air so they can pass someone, seems to me that would be a priority. Give up some maximum aero for more consistent aero? I expect that was tried and failed. NASCAR has aero that works up close, what are they doing differently?

They looked at a wing that would reduce the amount of dirty air (the "centerline downwash generating wing"), but it didn't work. Lots of info here: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/overtaking.html

The main takeaway is that "Aero is hard". :)

I suspect the reason for 2 laps of no DRS is safety-related. They regularly disable it when there are yellow flags near the DRS zone, or when it's raining heavily, for example. As for why have zones at all -- they want to be able to tune the amount of benefit derived from the DRS, and the easiest way to do that is to limit the size of the zone in which it can be used.

wbjones
wbjones UltraDork
11/20/12 7:00 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: NASCAR has aero that works up close, what are they doing differently?

what did NASCAR do that made their aero work up close ... it wasn't all that many yrs ago that the usual complaint from the drivers was aero push

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