Clutch reccommendation

This could just as easily go in the Minor Rant thread, but I do need some advice too.  I let other people drive my truck this weekend.  Now the clutch is trashed.  Awesome.

1993 Toyota T-100.  3.0L V6.  5 speed (R150).  4WD.

This truck spends a good portion of the time off pavement.  Anyone have any recommendations for a clutch replacement?  Anything else I need to be sure to do while I'm at it?  Flywheel machined?  I've never replaced a clutch before, and I'm in a pretty bad mood about this one.  I don't want to do the job, but I REALLY don't want to do it twice, so I'm looking for advice.

PS - "Hire it out" is valid advice, but I'll probably ignore it.  I'm a stubborn cheapskate.

I know nothing of that specific powertrain, but I'd certainly do anything you have access to while you're in the: pilot bearing, throwout bearing, various seals, clutch actuation hardware, etc. Ideally you'd have the flywheel machined, but visual inspection should tell you how necessary that really is.

I have advice for new clutch selection, get something like an Exedy Stage 1 - a sprung full disc of kevlar-ceramic material. This will be close to stock pedal stiffness and easy to control, which is important for offroading, and it will stand up to much more abuse than a stock disc, which is again important for offroading.

Pilot bearing, throw out bearing, rear main seal, probably going with a stock clutch replacement (the price difference to jump up to the Exedy is pretty dramatic), resurface the flywheel.  Looks like I can get through this for a couple hundred dollars in parts.  Probably a whole day of work though, assuming things go right.  If bolts start breaking, this job could get frustrating and time consuming pretty fast.

There is a real chance that I'll sell this truck after I fix it.  It's really annoying to not have a back seat, and I should probably have more capacity if I'm going to keep using it the way I have been.  I think I could end up with a truck that better suits my needs without spending much extra.  By that logic, this repair doesn't really need to be able to survive my use long term, but should be at least as good as OEM so I can sleep at night.

If you have stock torque you need a stock clutch because that's what will give the best combination of drivability and longevity.

Having said that, stock organic clutch discs are very forgiving. I wouldn't be surprised if the weekend in question was just 'the straw that broke the camels back' and your clutch was just about to start slipping anyway. Unless you drive pretty aggressively it's possible for a clutch to seem fine right up until it isn't, especially if you have only had the truck a short while and don't know what it used to feel like 100k miles ago. 

Basic clutch test is 'does it slip at WOT at peak torque rpm' and 'does it drop rpm rapidly when it rev it to redline and shift quickly to next gear'. If you never WOT or go to redline you really have no proof that the clutch was 'good' on Friday morning, so to speak. 

This engine has to be driven hard to survive interstate travel - not necessarily redlined, but it's not powerful and the powerband is very narrow.  I don't drive in a way that is blatantly attempting to make the clutch slip, but I pulled a 4000 lb trailer on Saturday morning and it was fine.  My sister-in-law (good driver) pulled the exact same trailer on the exact same route this morning and ended up stuck on the side of the highway.  She got it towed off the highway, but not all the way home (the guy did it for free).  I'm gonna feel it out in the parking lot to see if it's drivable (no more trailer).  If I can limp it home, I'll get it in the garage and start collecting parts.

You're probably right about the clutch being near the end of its life before this weekend, but it hadn't displayed the symptoms until now.  This truck has been worked pretty hard and driven by lots of people who don't really know their way around a manual transmission.

I'm feeling a little better about the overall scope of the repair.  A truck is an important tool for me, and having to repair or replace tools is always frustrating.  I need it operational, and that's got me a bit stressed, but the timing is better than it could be.

Okay, one more question...

Rockauto, and all the local places differentiate 2wd and 4wd flywheels.  Rockauto doesn't have any that specifically say 4wd in the description.  None of the local places do either.  Can anyone point me to a parts fiche that isn't miserable to work through so I can figure out if the two flywheels are interchangeable?  Or if you know off the top of your head, that's cool too.

Edit:  The 2wd flywheels are cheap enough that I'd rather have one sitting on the workbench ready to go than have to stop to take it to a machine shop.  It may cost me a bit more money, but should save a few days.

We had one of those trucks as a shop truck. We put a T3 turbo on it with (fairly crude) engine management and proceeded to use it for cross-country towing for years. 24' car trailer with the race car, spare engines, tools and 110 gallons of fuel climbing over the Utah mountains. Never had any trouble.

Why do I mention this? Because we used the stock clutch. The thing had well north of 100k when we sold it. The truck died years later of a collision.

Based on that experience, I would not hesitate to put another stock clutch in that turbocharged truck, never mind a naturally aspirated one.

The reason for 2wd and 4wd flywheels could be a difference in clutch size.   I ran into this when swapping a car engine into a 4wd pickup.

Clutch slippage often is a result of the pressure plate losing it's clamping force.

I'm feeling a little better about the overall scope of the repair.  A truck is an important tool for me, and having to repair or replace tools is always frustrating.  I need it operational, and that's got me a bit stressed, but the timing is better than it could be.

I think you'll be happy enough to have the truck back that the effort and inconvenience of the clutch job will be quickly forgotten. Maybe line up your 'lifelines' (i.e. people you can call/txt for immediate advice) just in case something really slows you down.  

I was going to try to limp it home last night.  Nope.  No engagement at all.  The pedal felt strange, like the throw was shorter than normal.  And the fluid was really dark.  It's getting towed to my house today and I'll start digging in tomorrow.

I appreciate everybody's insight on this.

Keith, I feel much better after hearing about your experience.

Iceracer, you're right it is a difference in clutch size based on 2wd or 4wd.  Best I can tell, the 4wd has a 12" diameter.  Rockauto has one option in that size and a bunch of options in the 9 5/16 size.

Vigo, I'm sure you're right about forgetting the effort once everything is functional again.  I'm perfectly happy to get a chance to replace a clutch for the first time.  It's a repair I would like to be able to do.  I'd just prefer if it was more like putting my motorcycle back together, where I can work a few hours a week and it takes as long as it takes.

Haven't finished this job yet for a few reasons.  First, my Camry needed some brake fixing.  New master cylinder and it's back in business.  Second, and more importantly, I can't figure out a way to pull the transmission that feels safe and comfortable.  Driveshafts are off.  Wiring harness disconnected.  I'm basically ready to take the transmission out, but I've hit a point where I'm not comfortable, so I've stopped to think about it.  Well, I've been thinking about it for a couple days and not getting the work done.

Anybody have a suggestion that doesn't involve purchasing a transmission jack?  Am I overthinking this?  Pretty nervous that I'll slide it back off the input shaft and it'll get squirrelly.

In reply to bigeyedfish :

Look up the weight, I bet It's not as heavy as you think it is. I've removed dozens of transmissions with just a floor jack, or no jack at all. If you want an added measure of safety,  put a piece of wood on the floor jack, and ratchet strap the tranny to the jack before you pull it loose. 

Build yourself a jack cradle out of scrap wood and throw a couple of ratchet straps around the transmission.  Works for exotics and trucks alike.  The primary benefit is safety and confidence to get under there and do the jerking around that is going to be necessary to remove and reinstall it.  

Jackstands....take a minute to make sure you have a comfortable and secure working height.    I usually give it more than a casual shove to make sure before I really lay into the transmission.

Good luck!  

Hmm, dark fluid could be because the clutch cooked and overheated the fluid. Or you could just have a hydraulics problem. So check those over very well before you pull the transmission. I'd hate to have you pull it and find the clutch is fine but the master or external slave cylinder is bad or something.

Oh, and as someone that just replaced his first clutch earlier this year: it's really not that bad. Most of it is like any other car repair, in that the hardest part is getting up the confidence to start.

Manual transmissions in regular size cars and small trucks are around 100lbs. Depending on your physique and lack of caution you technically can  do them without jacks. I've done the last several this way but they were definitely on the small end (miata, frontier, corolla).  I generally use a jack to take manuals down just because you sometimes have to get physical with them to get them off the dowel pins if they're a little rusty and i dont want it to get away from me and fall all the way down and crack the case on the concrete. Going back up I generally do it without a jack, although that makes it sound easier than it is. I usually use both hands and both legs/knees holding it up. It's still not pleasant, but it's not really much less pleasant for me than futzing around with a rigged floor jack or a plain normal floor jack that no transmission wants to balance on.  Auto transmissions are pretty easy that way because they have a flat-ish bottom and I just take the pad off my jack and bolt an old flexplate under it to make it 10" wide. Confidence is a huge factor here. Even if you don't have a physical limitation you will put a mental one on yourself the first time or first few times until you get confident. This is also the same reason i can't jump fences. I CAN jump fences, easily. I just cant if i think about it first! 

I really don’t mind other people driving my cars. But I cannot stand the idea of other people using my clutch poorly. 

Thanks guys.  I'm going to leave the transfer case attached, which adds some weight and awkwardness.  I was considering building a frame out of scrap wood just to prevent the transmission from meeting the concrete if it falls.  I'm still leaning this way, but it might make it crowded trying to get bolts out.  I can recruit a buddy to help get it pulled out of there too.  Either way, I feel a little better after hearing your ideas.

dculberson said:

Hmm, dark fluid could be because the clutch cooked and overheated the fluid. Or you could just have a hydraulics problem. So check those over very well before you pull the transmission. I'd hate to have you pull it and find the clutch is fine but the master or external slave cylinder is bad or something.

Oh, and as someone that just replaced his first clutch earlier this year: it's really not that bad. Most of it is like any other car repair, in that the hardest part is getting up the confidence to start.

When I looked in the master cylinder reservoir, I had a moment where I thought I could just change the fluid in the parking lot and that might fix it.  That would give me the opposite problem though, right?  Trashed fluid would make it so I could not disengage the driveline.

I have found that with most new jobs, whether they are construction, automotive, electrical, or whatever else, I have a moment during the job where I need to think on it for a while before moving forward.  Sometimes it just takes an hour, and other times it takes weeks.  It depends on the job, my level of focus, the amount of risk involved, and probably some other subconscious factors that I can't identify.  Once I get over that hump and can visualize the whole process, my confidence is there and I'm ready to make an attempt.  Getting advice from people who use a similar approach helps me get to that point faster, and I have found more people here than anywhere else who are willing to analyze something logically until the uncertainty is diminished.  So again, thanks to everyone for the input.  It is very helpful and much appreciated.

Partly because I'm a bum, but also due to the fact that I have been crazy busy, I just got this transmission pulled last night.  I used a big floor jack and a trolley jack under the transfer case.  I was a bit worried it would try to roll off the jacks, so I had a couple concrete blocks with boards across them to keep it from hitting the concrete if it fell.  Might have a little bit of redneck left in me.  It didn't fall, but I have to think this would have been easier with a transmission jack, and I haven't even started reassembly yet.

More interestingly, the bellhousing was full of clutch fibers.  It looked like loose fiberglass but burnt.  Like, burnt so bad the garage stinks.  Also, I probably should have looked up how to do this before I started.  It would have saved me a couple steps, but I don't tend to learn things the easy way.  I promise I'll look up torque specs before I put it back together.

I posted here a while back about needing to replace some brake lines for the first time.  I wasn't 100% sure about the process, but I knew it was a repair I wanted to be able to do.  Got that figured out, and it's no longer intimidating.  This is the same.  Not something I want to have to do all the time, but I'll be pretty comfortable with it next time and that's good.

Whole fibers in the bellhousing indicates that the clutch died violently. Anything close to normal clutch wear will only produce a fine dust.

Well it's been a month since this fiasco started. I'm slow and full of excuses, but I'll spare you. Anyway, everybody loves carnage pictures.

No friction material at all. Well, that's not true. It was everywhere. Just not where it was supposed to be. Kinda looks like it blew up, but supposedly it just started slipping more and more and then it was gone. 

Flywheels bolts don't want to let go. They laughed at the 1/4" impact driver. Gotta pick up a 1/2" this weekend.

I swapped the throw out bearing last night. The new one seems a lot lighter/cheaper than OEM. It's tempting to put the original back in.

Either way, it's nice to have made some progress. And we have a garage, so I actually look forward to working on it instead of dreading it.

In reply to bigeyedfish :

Based on the appearance, I would agree that it likely slipped a large amount prior to its ultimate death. A driven disc that is over-sped and burst will result in bigger chunks with a very fibrous edges. This one got hot enough to exceed the temperature that the resin (binder) could handle and thus came apart in smaller pieces (almost flowing out). I have been in clutch engineering (heavy truck) for over 30 years and have seen many that have died by thermal abuse and this is a prime example.

I've seen this happen because someone who didn't know how to use a clutch let it slip way too much way too many times.  Also, hauling a trailer with the clutch near the end of its life could produce the same result but may be harder to detect.  Small amounts of slippage over longer periods of time will burn the clutch.  How blue is the flywheel from the heat?  All that metal has to be removed.

Regarding flywheel bolts:  Grab one of the engine-transmission mounting bolts and thread it into the block a few turns.  Also, grab one of the pressure plate mounting bolts and thread that into the flywheel a few turns.  Straighten a metal coat hangar and wrap the hanger between the trans mount bolt and the pressure plate bolt.  Wrap it opposite the force you will apply to the flywheel bolts.  Get your breaker bar and a pipe and go for it.  When reassembling, wrap the hanger wire in the opposite direction and use your torque wrench.  Loctite blue on the flywheel bolt threads.

Remounting the trans:  Get a buddy and lie on the floor parallel to each other and the drivetrain with the trans between you.  Feet towards the front of the car.  I have faith you will figure out the rest.

In reply to Jerry From LA :

Yeah.  I know it was badly abused the weekend before it failed.  I heard and smelled it a few times.  The trailer definitely didn't do it any favors.  Flywheel is quite blue and badly scored from the clutch rivets.  I ordered a replacement when I ordered the new clutch.

Good idea for the flywheel bolts.  I'm still going to buy a 1/2" impact.  I have wanted one for a while and I finally have the excuse I need.  If it fails (Harbor Freight) I'll use the approach you described.

I'm going to try to reinstall using a couple jacks, mostly because I don't want to remove the transfer case.  I'll fight with it for a while, admit defeat, and eventually yank the transfer case.  Then it will all go back together easily and you can say, "I told you so."