Controversy at the Porsche AutoX

In reply to alfadriver:

Now you have to tell the rest of that story. The connection between a spinning Spitfire and glass blowing should make for an interesting read.

I once had a person tell me they had been autocrossing for years and never spun a car. My response was, you aren't trying hard enough. I can't find the limit without crossing it once in a while. I don't loop one every event, but I bet I loop one 2-3 times a year. The Abomination is kind of unforgiving at times, it goes from grip to no grip without much warning. I blame Curmudgeon for that.

In reply to Toyman01:

Not that interesting. I made a glass cone for one of Challenges. The way I put black outside of orange, and then etched some messy pattern to take away the black- it was to look like a very messy cone. It was given to the Challenger who was deemed to have the best spin. I should have made more- as some of the GRM staff wanted one..

But I've not blown glass for a few years.

Fun way to make some cool trophies and stuff for events. (stuffe and trophies for the AROC conventioon in 2007 and trophies for our local club council championship)

In reply to alfadriver:

Make some, and send me a price. I'll buy one. That would be awesome sitting on my desk.

OMG if you ever do get back into glass blowing Alfa, I would like to buy a cone or two. Especially if you can make it look like it's been through a few rallycross seasons.

Oh, and do a build thread. I love glass blowing.

irish44j wrote:

rotard wrote: Start doing track days so you don't have to worry about cones?

or rallycross. We have cones, but on every run they seem to move a foot or half out of where they were the run before, lol.

I'm still trying to grok the concept of taking the first run slowly. How can you learn the course at low speed? Go balls-out from the first run.

Thanks- maybe after the new year- I'll see if I can start back up on Saturdays.

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Now you have to tell the rest of that story. The connection between a spinning Spitfire and glass blowing should make for an interesting read. I once had a person tell me they had been autocrossing for years and never spun a car. My response was, you aren't trying hard enough. I can't find the limit without crossing it once in a while. I don't loop one every event, but I bet I loop one 2-3 times a year. The Abomination is kind of unforgiving at times, it goes from grip to no grip without much warning. I blame Curmudgeon for that.

I haven't spun in a couple of seasons …but then I'm "racing" a FWD car and know better than to lift at the wrong time .. though I have spun while out on track … usually due to trail braking

Knurled wrote:

irish44j wrote:

rotard wrote: Start doing track days so you don't have to worry about cones?

or rallycross. We have cones, but on every run they seem to move a foot or half out of where they were the run before, lol.

I'm still trying to grok the concept of taking the first run slowly. How can you learn the course at low speed? Go balls-out from the first run.

for beginners, the "sea of cones" is often impossible to negotiate when trying to do so "at speed" … taking the first run slowly allows them to actually find the course … and to speed up each run as they figure out where to go … shoot, I've been a-x'ing 10+ yrs, and have won my class (with several equal level drivers) several times with 2 different regions, and I seldom set my fastest time on the first run .. I usually try to drive it at ~ 80% … just to make sure I know what I think I remember

Is that an airport runway? In Las Vegas they had an autocross on the Nellis flightline at least once that I can remember.

wbjones wrote:

Knurled wrote:

irish44j wrote:

rotard wrote: Start doing track days so you don't have to worry about cones?

or rallycross. We have cones, but on every run they seem to move a foot or half out of where they were the run before, lol.

I'm still trying to grok the concept of taking the first run slowly. How can you learn the course at low speed? Go balls-out from the first run.

for beginners, the "sea of cones" is often impossible to negotiate when trying to do so "at speed" … taking the first run slowly allows them to actually find the course … and to speed up each run as they figure out where to go … shoot, I've been a-x'ing 10+ yrs, and have won my class (with several equal level drivers) several times with 2 different regions, and I seldom set my fastest time on the first run .. I usually try to drive it at ~ 80% … just to make sure I know what I think I remember

In autocross, it really doesn't matter however you do it, since your first run is not likely to be your fastest, and only your fastest counts. You can do the first run at 5mph, or spin out 3 times on the first run - and still win your class. I've never taken a first autocross run slowly. Ever. I tend to drive it recklessly to find the edge of grip as knowledge for future runs.

In rallycross, all the runs count toward a total time, so going too slowly on the first run (to learn the course) or going too fast (and making a big mistake) can both doom your chances of winning. So we have to strike a bit more of a balance on our first runs, especially since the surface can be highly unpredictable.

Unfortunately, I still tend to do my first runs a bit too recklessly in rallycross, and always have to play catch-up after i overdrive and make a mistake, lol. Pete can tell you about that...

wbjones wrote:

Knurled wrote:

irish44j wrote:

rotard wrote: Start doing track days so you don't have to worry about cones?

or rallycross. We have cones, but on every run they seem to move a foot or half out of where they were the run before, lol.

I'm still trying to grok the concept of taking the first run slowly. How can you learn the course at low speed? Go balls-out from the first run.

for beginners, the "sea of cones" is often impossible to negotiate when trying to do so "at speed" … taking the first run slowly allows them to actually find the course … and to speed up each run as they figure out where to go … shoot, I've been a-x'ing 10+ yrs, and have won my class (with several equal level drivers) several times with 2 different regions, and I seldom set my fastest time on the first run .. I usually try to drive it at ~ 80% … just to make sure I know what I think I remember

Try not doing a course walk at all. Then you will actually look ahead. Driving slow on the first run teaches you nothing, because the speed on the subsequent runs will skew what you are seeing.

Javelin wrote:

wbjones wrote:

Knurled wrote:

irish44j wrote:

rotard wrote: Start doing track days so you don't have to worry about cones?

or rallycross. We have cones, but on every run they seem to move a foot or half out of where they were the run before, lol.

I'm still trying to grok the concept of taking the first run slowly. How can you learn the course at low speed? Go balls-out from the first run.

for beginners, the "sea of cones" is often impossible to negotiate when trying to do so "at speed" … taking the first run slowly allows them to actually find the course … and to speed up each run as they figure out where to go … shoot, I've been a-x'ing 10+ yrs, and have won my class (with several equal level drivers) several times with 2 different regions, and I seldom set my fastest time on the first run .. I usually try to drive it at ~ 80% … just to make sure I know what I think I remember

Try *not* doing a course walk at all. Then you will actually look ahead. Driving slow on the first run teaches you nothing, because the speed on the subsequent runs will skew what you are seeing.

I agree, actually. I always did autocross course walks, and can't say whether they helped or not honestly; but on occasion with rallycross when I've course walked multiple times, I always drove poorly. In fact, I've never won an even in which I walked the course (and have won a decent amount when I haven't). Rallycrss/autocross....same concept when it comes to that, IMO.

guys … whatever works for y'all … the difference here might be that you're experienced a-x'ers … I've gotten GREAT results from my method when used by true beginners

BradLTL wrote: I just wish my local region had a site like that!

No $hit!! Wow!! Where is that??

his profile shows him in mission viejo, cali. so I'd guess somewhere in southern Cal.

When I walked a course, I stopped every so often and looked ahead and memorized the course. I didn't care about the right line. Many slower drivers critiqued each corner, while walking at two mph.

I usually finished second on my class, behind Dan Stone, who is a national ranked driver.

Wow, this thread got off topic after beating the op to death. Hope he learned a few things about autocrossing. And hope we didn't come across too harsh.

Kramer wrote: Wow, this thread got off topic after beating the op to death. Hope he learned a few things about autocrossing. And hope we didn't come across too harsh.

Why is it harsh to tell someone that they are wrong?

Did the OP expect anyone to say "yes, try for video replay!!" ?

And while it appears that he's got a racing car using gloves and all- the kind of question is pretty basic, covered really early. Just based on the question, it's easy to think that this person has little experience.

The whole thing about being serious- so if the point above isn't true, then someone who asks about changing such a basic rule using video implies that the driver is taking the event really seriously.

So either he's really new or really serious. Not sure what other conclusion one could make with this kind of question.

Then my point about being a canoe- many many people have autocross videos. This is the first time I recall being asked to subscribe to someone. Noting the ads on the bottome line- it appears that he's getting some kind of money out of people watching the video. So he's advertising. Granted- not making much, but I think it's of rather poor taste.

All in all, I honestly question how people's responses can be taken so negatively given the question and how it was asked.

So- No, no video replay, the rule is well established.

No- why do the drivers with cameras get an advantage for those who do not?

Stopping isn't that hard. Miss the cone as you slow down- plenty of space.

why are you running directly at timing and scoring?

seems pretty straight forward to me.

I just re-watched the video .. and then read the comments … he pointed out to someone that he had ridden his bicycle for the course walk … guess he doesn't realize that's against the rules unless he's handicapped to the point that walking the course is an unacceptable hardship, and that he would have to do this at a walking pace and only with the event chair's permission

True Racer3 days ago

+Phr00tage I use my bike for the course walk Reply ·

i propose a new rule for autocross: all cones are to be left wherever they end up after being hit. workers would go stand them up, of course, but don't move them back to where they were. this makes the course change over the course of the day- and change really quickly and dramatically when someone activates "bulldozer mode" and hits every cone they can find..

I always throw away my first run and teach novices the same. I'll get the path while walking but the line evades me until run two or three, sometimes never. Probably the reason I'll never take this more seriously than berkeleying around in a parking lot. Kind of like I treat golf as chasing a ball through a park.

wbjones wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I once had a person tell me they had been autocrossing for years and never spun a car. My response was, you aren't trying hard enough. I can't find the limit without crossing it once in a while.

I haven't spun in a couple of seasons …but then I'm "racing" a FWD car and know better than to lift at the wrong time .

Dudes. I've spun the Manic Miata twice on the same run.

novaderrik wrote: i propose a new rule for autocross: all cones are to be left wherever they end up after being hit. workers would go stand them up, of course, but don't move them back to where they were. this makes the course change over the course of the day- and change really quickly and dramatically when someone activates "bulldozer mode" and hits every cone they can find..

We rallycross like that sometimes. Put the cone back in the general area. It's a fun way to do things and makes for better drivers in the long run. It's either frustrating or silly, depending on how you approach it. We also move gates to keep the course safe and just send people out with a "gate's moved, pay attention" call.

I used to tell the drivers at the meeting "If you're not having fun, look around and figure out why not. It's an autocross." Not everybody got the message.

Drive the course you have, not the one you think you have.

We stick flags into the ground and try to put the cones on top of them in our rallycross events. If somebody goes through the element throwing up a wall of dirt and scattering cones to the four winds, the best we can do is get them about where they were before. This would cause several of the more hardcore autocross people to go apoplectic and possibly stroke out. I am not exaggerating, and I mostly understand their point. They can deal with victor margins in thousandths of seconds, and even seeing an element be out of place can cause your concentration to waver enough to "ruin" a run.

I'd have more sympathy for them if they added up all of their runs for the day and went with that time instead of their single best run.