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earlybroncoguy1
earlybroncoguy1 Reader
4/26/22 4:48 p.m.

I've got a Bronco project with a mild 351W running a (gasp) Qjet. I went with that due to familiarity, had one for years on my hotrod '72 Chevelle and got to know it well. I'm considering installing a Holley Sniper Steath, with an in-tank pump, mostly because the Bronco will not always be flat and level (rockcrawling, trails, etc) but also because of the crap we get for gas these days, with ethanol mixed in. That stuff RUINS carbs if it sits in the float bowl for any length of time (like it will in vehicle that doesn't get driven regularly). Injectors don't seem to have as much of a problem with it.

I've learned the hard way, with several ATV's, mowers, generators, pressure washers, etc - close the tank petcock and run the carb dry if it's going to sit for any length of time - even just a few days.     

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
4/26/22 5:27 p.m.
earlybroncoguy1 said:

 

I've learned the hard way, with several ATV's, mowers, generators, pressure washers, etc - close the tank petcock and run the carb dry if it's going to sit for any length of time - even just a few days.     

Seeing as the car is moslty HPDE it will likely be running some kind of race gas; I use the 100 octane unleaded stuff in my Datsun, there is always some left over so I use it in the generator and the mower.  The higher octane fuel doesn't tear up the carbs.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
4/26/22 5:36 p.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Chevy then made the long runners out of tube, bent them upwards to meet a central plenum, and added port injection, calling it the TPI system, but that is well post-C3.

This is the one I am thinking of. Won't these (or the replacement versions) bolt to an old school sbc?

Mostly.  There is something with some of the intake bolts being at different angles, which is where you can buy angled shims (15 degree?) to cross pollinate.

There are at least four different SBC intake bolt patterns.

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS New Reader
4/26/22 6:21 p.m.

in for pics of the corvette?

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
4/26/22 6:45 p.m.
jfryjfry said:

I put an efi system on our street only bronco expecting it to be awesome.  Started with fitech and it had problems.  Got a holley sniper and it was defective so they replaced it. 
 

now it's in and running good.  But frankly, it wasn't worth it over the carb that I broke the engine in with.  I had expected to be able to reach in, turn key and start it easily.  But I need to wait for it to prime shot and then it still needs a little dance on the gas pedal.  
 

but I've already dumped loads of $$ and time into the fuel system to make it work so I'm stubbornly sticking with it. 
 

I agree with Paul's assesment.  Go with a good factory efi system and the gas tank and lines to go with it or just stick with a carb.  

I am going to agree with all of the above. TBI can work, just that a lot of planets need to aling. Some are on you, like wiring, ignition, fuel system design and exhaust integrity. Other issues are the fact that a small manufacturing compamy like Fitech is going to struggle to get 85% of their devices out the door without some fault. Some will get fixed others will linger till you give up.

I can think of very few things that will go wrong with a carb that will make you walk home. I have a long list of things that go wrong with TBI. 

Aftermarket EFI is a fun and educational hobby. Maybe not so great a way to fuel a car that needs to be reliable.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
4/26/22 7:08 p.m.

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

rustomatic
rustomatic Reader
4/26/22 7:10 p.m.

The late-90s GM trucks (first Vortec) had a pretty good TBI sytem (still distributor, too)--it just pre-dated the LSX. 

As someone who messed with a lot of carbonators in old VWs, Dodges, and Fords, they can all smoke a pickle--just no fun.  VW's aftermarket led the way with terrible replacement carburetors (along with Weber) and after that, they (all aftermarket carburetors under $1000.00) have gone way downhill in quality and value.  They do not last.

The best injection is the one that comes with an LS . . .

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
4/26/22 7:21 p.m.

The car is going to see a lot of track duty, but squeezing every last bit of power out of it so that I can shave off another 1/10th isn't my priority.  I plan to have my wife...and maybe my son...drive it too.  I just want it to be reliable and steady (as track cars go).  

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/26/22 7:46 p.m.

I know I sound like a broken record sometimes, but a properly done Qjet is a thing of beauty.  I camp the summers with a guy who started working for Rochester/Delphi back about the time the Qjet was being rolled out, and his last real act before retirement was overseeing the rollout of the TBI.  He constantly apologizes for the TBI and wishes his name was never associated with it.

The Qjet consistently was able to meet or exceed EPA emissions standards and CAFE requirements up through the last one in 1989.  The move to TBI was not because they were forced to for emissions, it was a corporate decision because everything else was going EFI and GM didn't want to be left behind with the latest hot button.  The development of GM's TBI was fraught with nightmares.  It took them nearly 2 years to get it to pass emissions, the MPGs were awful, and they had to push the cruise AFR farther than they would like.  The speed/density system and the low-resolution ECM caused long cranking and often stumbles off idle.  But corporate got their wish and the engineers finally relaxed for a hot second.

That isn't to say that all TBI systems are bad, just that GM's happened to be a hideous, expensive, cantankerous solution to a problem that didn't exist.  Thousands of TBI truck owners swapped back to a Qjet and picked up 2mpg and about 10 hp.

I have very little experience with aftermarket EFI.  I'm doing an LS right now but I'm using stock stuff and hacking a stock ECM.  I have heard nightmares about FiTech.  I think the product seems to be good, but there is zero tech out in the wild.  There are no installers, techs, and there is no training available.  FiTech makes it, sells it, but has zero support for it.  There is no such thing as a FiTech certified facility.  At best you might find a guy at a local shop who knows FiTech stuff pretty well, but you're mostly on your own.  I hear very good things about the Holley Sniper.  MSD makes one that was the darling of the pro touring crowd but I've been out of the scene for a bit.

But, all of those are in the realm of $1500-2000 until you get all the supporting parts for it.  For a long time what I did was go to a junkyard and start looking under the hoods of GM trucks and vans.  Find a Qjet with a model number starting with 170 and without an electrical connector on top.  Take it off, send it to Jet Performance with all the relevant details of the engine, and they send me back a like-new, bead-tumbled, jetted, tuned, flow bench-tested flawless Qjet for about $300.  I may have adjusted the idle mix a 1/4 turn or adjusted the idle speed, but it's a bolt-on and go deal.  Later in the process I got pretty good at doing them myself but I didn't have the experience to just inherently know which jets to use, so I had some trial and error.  There are other mods you can do like adjustable primary step up heights, secondary air door notches, drilling the venturis for a different vacuum source... they're wonderful pieces.  A properly tuned Qjet will be all but indiscernible from EFI.  The only real difference is pumping the pedal to set the choke and having fast idle for a bit.

I think the first step is finding out what's on it now.  Corvette + race probably equals Holley, but we might be lucky and it's a Qjet.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
4/26/22 8:10 p.m.

I will ask the previous owners. I forget what carb they said it had on it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
4/26/22 8:19 p.m.

I will second (well, reiterate) that a proper Q jet is a glorious thing.  The atomization is excellent (a place where TBI really lacks, any EFI really) and they are smooth and reliable.  The fuel enters the bowl at the bottom, so there is no built in aeration before the fuel gets a chance to get to the metering circuits.  Fill a bucket with a hose above and then below the water line and the difference is obvious.

 

That carb is definitely a 4150 Holley style carb going by the dual feed fuel system in the first pic. The dual inlet primary bowl (plugged on linkage side) suggests an aftermarket carb, though Holley did make some bowls like that.  I think only for Dominators, but the bowls can be swapped.  I can see an accelerator pump for the secondaries, so it is a mechanical secondary carb.

The next step is to pull the air cleaner off and look for a list number on the choke horn, if it is a Holley and still has the choke horn.  It will be a four digit number, possibly with a suffix (like 3310-3: third revision of the 3310 carb)

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito UltimaDork
4/26/22 9:06 p.m.

I have a MSD Atomic EFI 2 setup with the whole Holley Hyperspark ignition system on my '79 Dodge Power Wagon's 318. Coming from a pukey Carter BBD 2bbl and a ton of broken emissions stuff, it made a world of difference. The big thing is getting it dialed in. There's a huge learning curve, especially if you don't have a lot of tuning experience (like me). While it works well now, I did have to invest a lot of time learning about tuning from forum posts, YouTube videos, the FB group Holley Performance hosts, and even talking to Holley techs. I love the customization and being able to see what my engine is actually doing both in real time and through data logs rather than guessing by sound and smell. 

Most of the issues I see with them stem from people not following the install directions and just slapping it on. There are a few very important steps that seem to always get skipped, and then people freak out and yell at Holley on social media or swap a carb back on and trash it. I used to see "that guy" come into the auto parts store I worked at and do the same thing with off-the-shelf carbs too. They would come back and toss it on the counter full of fuel and yell at us that "it didn't work" because they bolted it on with zero tuning and the engine didn't magically run better. 

All that said, if you have the time to learn about them, they may be an option. They aren't for everyone, and I get that. MPFI is superior in a lot of ways if you have an easy way to control it. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/26/22 9:22 p.m.

Yup.  Holley 4150.  Nothing wrong with that.  Good carbs.

Extreme generalizations:  Holley is the HP king.  You'll make 3.36 more hp at redline (which you'll never feel) and it does pretty good at taking stabs at AFR everywhere else.  They are more about bulk flow at peak velocity and RPM but don't emphasize drivability and mixture anywhere else.  They can be tuned to be VERY driveable, but the squarebore (meaning equally sized round venturis for each barrel) aren't really inspiring.  Most of the aftermarket for Holley-based carbs like Quick Fuel have modified metering blocks that either tend to squeak out a few more hp or try to maximize street manners and they do a good job, but they have limitations.

Edelbrock/Carter is the simplicity king.  They are the beginner carb, like the Mattel workbench and tool kit you got as a 3-year-old.  They atomize fuel well and that's about it, but aside from having three circuits (idle, primary, secondary) they are unsophisticated chunks of cast aluminum with holes in the right place.

Qjet is a ground-up, purpose built carb that was engineered to be drivable.  No other carburetor on the planet - factory or aftermarket - has more accurate metering.  They have tiny primaries for throttle response, torque, and massive secondaries for supplying big flow. (spreadbore instead of squarebore)  All Qjets are either 750 or 800 CFM, but the secondary air doors make it truly a flow-sensing carburetor.  The same carb was used equally well on everything as small as a 3.8L Buick and a 4.3L V6 all the way up to a Caddy 500, and they all met EPA standards as late as 1989 when the last one was put on an Olds 307 in a Cadillac Fleetwood.  (A car which I almost bought, by the way... strange thing that I drove the last car built with a Qjet)

The one achilles heel of the Qjet is that its accuracy comes from how it deals with the vacuum signal.  If you have a really hairy cam and massive head flow, it can start getting confused, but if you have that kind of engine, you don't care about part throttle cruise anyway.  Once you drop below 10-ish inches of idle vacuum, you're getting outside of streetable anyway, and a Holley might be a wiser choice since you're likely running a 4000-stall converter and the only street time it sees is maybe on the way to the drag strip.

EFI definitely has its benefits, but in all honesty it likely won't be better at the MPG game than a Qjet, probably won't make any more power or torque than a Qjet, the question is if you want the little advantages of EFI with a big cash input, or if you want to keep more money in your pocket and tap the accelerator before you start it on a cold day.

Other big benefit of a carb is its simplicity.  Chances are you can run it for 30 years without touching it, but MAP sensors, injectors, coolant temp sensors, IACs, IATs, TPS, ECMs, O2 sensors, and all the other fun stuff associated with EFI can be an additional failure point.

My vote is to keep the carb.  Tune up the Holley and see how you like it.  If you want a bit more refinement, throttle response, torque, and are willing to give up $300-400 and 2 hp, have someone build you a proper Qjet.

Edit to add.... if you pull the Holley off and see that it has a spreadbore intake, great.  If it has a squarebore intake, you can't just adapt a spreadbore carb to it.  Spreadbore intake can take either flavor of carb without a hiccup.  Squarebore intake can only take a squarebore carb.  

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
4/27/22 6:20 a.m.

Thanks!!  The tribe has spoken, carb it is.  I will stick with the set up I have and get it tuned properly.  

Curtis, no drag racing here....I like to turn left and right, and use the brakes laugh   This is a HPDE/track day car.  It's a proper 4spd manual.  I want it to respond smoothly and evenly on throttle applications.  Sudden surges/dips in power while coming out of a corner = pucker moments at best.

jfryjfry
jfryjfry SuperDork
4/27/22 8:11 a.m.

At the very least, going through the carb is easy and you can run it as it is to see what you think. 
 

see if there are others running the efi system you think you'd go with if you were to switch and get their opinion on it in a track vehicle.  
 

just because you choose the carb now doesn't mean you can't change your mind later!

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
4/27/22 8:13 a.m.
jfryjfry said: I agree with Paul's assesment.  Go with a good factory efi system and the gas tank and lines to go with it or just stick with a carb.  

I would probably lobby for a good, tuneable EFI computer. I agree with some of the later comments though that it's a project in its own even if you already have the rest of the EFI hardware off a suitable donor. There are some vendors that can help with this though :)

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
4/27/22 10:00 a.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

To the OP. I'm an original carb guy, cleaned, rebuilt, modified more carbs than I can remember. 
  The one thing carbs are is approximate devices. While EFI can be exact.   When air density changes ( as it's constantly doing) carbs need to be adjusted to those changes usually with jet changes. While there is some adaptation with variable venturies carbs( SU for example) that comes at a slight cost power wise. 
    While EFI is constantly self adapting. So when the weather front comes through while you're on the track you aren't left behind.  
     Finally, adjusting carbs is a lot more cumbersome  and time consuming than a few key strokes  on a lap top. 
        

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
4/27/22 10:08 a.m.

Having done two carb-to-EFI conversions now on TR6s, I can understand and agree with the opinion of sticking with carbs.  That doesn't mean you can't take advantage of some technology.  If the opportunity presents itself, weld bungs on the headers for wide-band O2 sensors.  A good wide-band setup could help fine-tune the carb and make it easier to convert to EFI later if desired.  Cool project, BTW.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/27/22 10:14 a.m.

Politely disagree, frenchyd.  Air density doesn't affect carb mixture except in extreme cases, or if you're tuning for the last 0.02 seconds at the strip.  Since they are passive devices, if you have more mass of air (denser) flowing past the orifice it grabs more fuel.  EFI does the same thing, but it requires three sensors and a computer to do it.  Nothing wrong with that, just clarifying.

But you can tune a carb at sea level and 90 degrees and then drive over Vail Pass toward denver at 10 degrees and 10,700 feet and it will work just fine.  I know this because I've done it about a dozen times.

My point in suggesting a Qjet was that he could have EFI-like drivability for $300 instead of $2000

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
4/27/22 11:04 a.m.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

I love sticking widebands on carbed cars.

It also is kind of an eye opener how far "off" a carburetor can be, going by pure numbers, and still drive well.  Good atomization covers a lot of sins.  Or rather, EFI's poor atomization makes proper mixture ratios far more critical.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
4/27/22 11:13 a.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I would say it depends upon the type of carb. Weber DCOEs do exhibit some variability in tuning based upon conditions, especially with the acceleration jets.  Not so much with a constant depression carb such as an SU.

Qjets sound like an excellent idea.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Dork
4/27/22 11:16 a.m.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

What's the black car?!?  Moar pics?

MotorsportsGordon
MotorsportsGordon Dork
4/27/22 11:41 a.m.

Here is a couple of interesting corvette fuel injection  setups 

tripower


l88/zl1 air cleaner


 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
4/27/22 12:13 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Politely disagree, frenchyd.  Air density doesn't affect carb mixture except in extreme cases, or if you're tuning for the last 0.02 seconds at the strip.  Since they are passive devices, if you have more mass of air (denser) flowing past the orifice it grabs more fuel.  EFI does the same thing, but it requires three sensors and a computer to do it.  Nothing wrong with that, just clarifying.

But you can tune a carb at sea level and 90 degrees and then drive over Vail Pass toward denver at 10 degrees and 10,700 feet and it will work just fine.  I know this because I've done it about a dozen times.

My point in suggesting a Qjet was that he could have EFI-like drivability for $300 instead of $2000

You are saying what I said. Except I'm not sure you know it.  Yes,  we are talking about racing where  horsepower really matters. Not street driving where it doesn't.  For the street a little rich a little lean is no big deal.  On the race track it's a really big deal. 
We have a saying. Lean is mean.  Fat is lazy.   While E85 is more tolerant than gasoline. It still has a point where bad things happen if you are too lean. 

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
4/27/22 12:23 p.m.

In reply to DWNSHFT :

That's my wife's 996.  My driveway is an overflowing and odd compilation of stuff at the moment, going to be sorting through it all.

The Corvette will be mostly track duty with some "why not" street use.  As I said before, I'm not looking to set the fastest lap.  I'll happily give up 10hp for the sake of reliability and smooth throttle.

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