Designing cars before the age of the computer

alfadriver said:

And I would also point out that most cars way back then were not great looking cars.  Only the classics that we remember.  The rest have just drifted into nothing.

90% of everything is crap. 

I would stand by my assessment that the primary factor governing automotive styling is MPG targets. After that, crash test ratings. There's only so many shapes that give you enough aerodynamic efficiency to get the MPG people want.

Then there the shift to people looking at cars as appliances and nothing else. 

So when it comes to CAD, FEA and computers in general it's garbage in = garbage out as already mentioned. It's not hard to force a simulation to give the desired output and the smart guys in the room will immediately know if you're bullE36 M3ting them. Making good assumptions and setting proper boundary conditions is where education, experience and intuition comes in. Computers are just a tool. There's also "analysis paralysis" and knowing when to take a step away from the computer and sit down with pencil and paper.

As for car design I would say government regulations for things like passenger and pedestrian safety are by far the largest drivers of our current lack of design diversity. Fuel economy is still primarily dictated by the engine design otherwise everything would look like a Prius. Public opinion is also a major factor and like fashion certain elements go in and out of style. This isn't new. Look at a Conquest, 944 and RX7 from the late 80s. Yeah, we can all identify them but to the average person (e.g. my wife) they're all the same.

ProDarwin said:

LeftLaneLoser said:

Nooooooooo. Wrong. Bean counters yes, but wind tunnel simulation is what the designers are hampered by. They might want to recreate a caddy tail fin, but that computer aided wind tunnel sim says you can't, and it's too expensive. 

This is a design requirement.  A non-computer-aided wind tunnel would say the same thing.  It has nothing to do with the computer.

I like how you can't debate me but you turn and attack this guy instead to make yourself feel better.  I mean, what kind of pseudo intellectual authority are you appealing to with your response of "This is a design requirement."  ?

You remind me of a story of a man who stood at a gate watching 2 Dobermans barking at him angrily.  The man just stood there watching until the 2 dogs had nothing to attack but each other.  And then a miracle happened.  The 2 dogs turned and attacked each other.

Mr_Asa said:

Junkers said:

93EXCivic said:

Never wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

Yet again and you can only reply with mockery.  You just keep proving my point.  Thank you!

One good tip to those enjoying this show:  If you can draw an emotion out of people, you can make them do anything you say - and there's nothing they can do about it.  Some people will have trouble sleeping tonight because of what I did to them.  And I did it all with a few words that reminded them of their traumatic past.  They'll close their eyes to drop off into sleep and BOOM!  They'll shout a clever reply to me.  But who are they talking to?  Themselves?  You can't talk to your self.  And it won't be to me.  I'll be fast asleep resting well.

I'm still waiting for someone to show up to debate me.   Please send me your best intellectual.

I love when trolls outright admit to being trolls.  Makes it so much easier for The Powers That Be to remove them if they want.  Otherwise they have to go through all sorts of searching of posts and all sorts of other E36 M3.

No one is going to debate you, not because they are emotionally triggered, but because you're being a berkeleying shiny happy person and have already proven that you don't debate in good faith.

 

I think your synapses are crossing and I've short circuited your mind.  What is "berkeleying shiny happy person?"  What is "E36 M3?"  I didn't mean to affect you so.

Can you please give me an example of how I am not debating in good faith if I have not debated anyone as yet?  Actually, everyone here that snaps back at me I've quite handily dismissed as being blatant mockers.  Not one debate yet has begun aside from the debate I am now beginning with you, friend.

As to trolling, that's your problem.  How can I be trolling if I myself just showed you how to read comments and debate without being emotional?  I JUST SHOWED YOU HOW YOUR EMOTIONS blind the facts that hurt your feelings.  Take care of your emotions and you won't get your buttons pushed.  Easy as pie.  Anyone can do it.

In reply to infernosg :

All fair points. I would say the last one is basically the same as cars becoming appliances. Also, the "all cars look like Prius" sounds a lot like "all cars look the same now", which I hear every day. 

Turbo_Rev said:

In reply to infernosg :

All fair points. I would say the last one is basically the same as cars becoming appliances. Also, the "all cars look like Prius" sounds a lot like "all cars look the same now", which I hear every day. 

"All Cars Look the Same" is another way of suggesting that the design constraints generally will result in a handful of shapes that work.  Very much sucks when you want some style on the outside.  So you see differences in the front and interior.   

Must have been aerodynamic requirements why all the cars from the 1930s looked the same, too 

Does anyone else think LeftLaneLoser and Junkers are the same person?

In reply to Junkers :

You literally said how you're not "debating" in good faith, you goober.  You repeatedly claimed to have triggered people and gotten under their skin, and then you claim that if you get an emotional response you've "won," whatever the berkeley that means.  No one here is debating.  No one here is winning any discussions. Some people are losing them, but I don't need to tell you that.

As for the word filters, maybe you should spend more time lurking and paying attention.  Engage your brain and ask where all the cuss words are, you knob.

Don't feed the trolls. 

In reply to Oldboy Speedwell :

Found objects are more influential in the design world than you could possibly believe. :-)

In reply to 93EXCivic :

More like - How to say I have never, ever been involved in any aspect of the auto industry but I like to pretend I'm an expert at all of it...  

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Junkers :

You literally said how you're not "debating" in good faith, you goober.  You repeatedly claimed to have triggered people and gotten under their skin, and then you claim that if you get an emotional response you've "won," whatever the berkeley that means.  No one here is debating.  No one here is winning any discussions. Some people are losing them, but I don't need to tell you that.

As for the word filters, maybe you should spend more time lurking and paying attention.  Engage your brain and ask where all the cuss words are, you knob.

My dear Asa,

You're intentionally trying to confuse the issue so no one can follow.  Nobody is debating me at all unless you count degradation and mockery as debate.  I have not participated in a debate because I have zero opposition to my ideas - only mockery at me for somehow hurting ppl's feelings in some way.  So there you go - the debate has not started yet, but the mud slinging goes on and on and on.  How do you count your rude name-calling?  Good faith?  You're trying to get me to be emotional by making it personal, but it's only you who is emotional so far.

So because I point out that I caused YOU to react to ME in an illogical and emotional manner, it makes me a bad person to you.  You are literally saying to me, "you're bad because you make me FEEL bad by pointing out my flaws and identifying the people who damaged me."

Reminder:  My OP that hurt your feelings was about a CAUSE of the problem of why we can't see talent in auto design anymore.  I said it was in how we were all educated and how that lead to the SYMPTOM we see as a lack of talent. 

I don't even know what I said that hurt you complaining trolls.  You won't tell me, because it hurts you too much to say so.  You'd have to deal with the very words that cause you the pain of seeing your own CONSCIENCE.  And that is unconscionable. 

And since you don't get what I said about emotions, let me ask you:  Are you strengthened by your emotions?  Does getting angry somehow win the battle?  How does it do that?  I can teach you so much if you'd only ask me the right questions and properly engage with me in a civil debate.

Ohhh....  this is still happening! 

Lolz.

Saw my name.

Didn't read.

Meth is a hell of a drug.

as an FYI, thanks to those that made a report in the Canoes thread.  Margie/Mods have decided to send Junkers a 'First Strike' letter, and ask them to take two weeks off from the board.

If the discussion on this can get back 'to the topic', fine.  otherwise, I'm happy to lock this thread down.

consider this your "yellow flag" post

Back on topic:

I'm often amazed at what was involved in design work before the age of computers.  I'm a mechanical engineer and a huge fan of 3D model based design.  I"m  old enough to have designed a bunch of stuff on a drawing board with pencil and paper but CAD and 3D modeling became a thing before I had to design any really complex assemblies.  Modern tools, properly used, make designing complex parts and assemblies so much faster.  It's also easier to identify assembly issues before you start making expensive parts.

I will say (trying here) that I personally really like the illustrations they used to do for cars.  Pictures are fine (many are highly processed), but the illustrations in many cases rose to the level of art: