Diesel power

I stumbled upon this video on another forum, of a sweet diesel powered rat rod laying down some rubber on the drag strip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1v0zsNY8QY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqMfoIBj4bU&feature=related

The sight of that vertical exhaust bellowing thick, diesely smoke is just plain awesome, as is the turbine-like sound the thing makes. Does anybody have more info on this particular 'rod, or know of other diesel-powered cars with performance intentions?

How about a 600+hp duramax powered Grand National getting 35 mpg http://www.18to1.com/

Maybe an 800+hp duramax mustang getting 30 mpg http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0901dp_1994_ford_mustang_duramax/nitrous_express.html

Or a 1200-hp/2400 lbft torque Cummins in a daily driver dodge "Chris has scored dyno runs of 1,237 hp with a calculated torque of more than 2,400 lb-ft." http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/0709dp_2001_dodge_ram_2500_cummins/index.html

I've seen duramax duallys weighing 6200-lbs kick the snot out of ZO6 vettes. Plenty of daily driver diesel trucks in the 9s that are used to tow the "other" drag car on a trailer.

curtis73 wrote: How about a 600+hp duramax powered Grand National getting 35 mpg http://www.18to1.com/ Maybe an 800+hp duramax mustang getting 30 mpg http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0901dp_1994_ford_mustang_duramax/nitrous_express.html Or a 1200-hp/2400 lbft torque Cummins in a daily driver dodge "Chris has scored dyno runs of 1,237 hp with a calculated torque of more than 2,400 lb-ft." http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/0709dp_2001_dodge_ram_2500_cummins/index.html I've seen duramax duallys weighing 6200-lbs kick the snot out of ZO6 vettes. Plenty of daily driver diesel trucks in the 9s that are used to tow the "other" drag car on a trailer.

thats all going to change very shortly.. 2010 and 2012 will put a severe hurt on these crazy performance numbers.

I drove my friend's chipped 320d a few nights ago, I don't think I'll ever be the same, the torque was unreal... it's a real shame we don't have diesel cars in the states.

That mustang is sweet!!! gimmie!

I just smoked a Prelude last weekend in stoplight to stoplight race He was sporting a cold air intake and a fart can exhaust. I was driving a Dodge Mega Cab Cummings diesel, 6 speed.

I almost lost when I shifted into 4th and spun the tires...It was raining..

ignorant wrote: thats all going to change very shortly.. 2010 and 2012 will put a severe hurt on these crazy performance numbers.

Yeah, its frustrating, but at least for now they don't check emissions, so you can always do it illegally

I kinda view diesel right now kinda like muscle-car into smog-era for gasoline. In the 60s people were discovering the joys of massive power in light cars and the sky was the limit. Well, the sky and engineering limitations of the time. Then the 70s rolled around and gas cars got neutered. But right now is a great time for gas performance. We figured out how to do it cleanly and effectively.

Diesel is just leaving its hot-rod, muscle-car era. We had our decade of enlightenment where we discovered crazy diesel power, then the government is coming in and ruining our fun. I'm a little disappointed in Americans' perspective on diesel, though. Most Americans never really accepted it as mainstream because of outdated and incorrect stereotypes.

My fantasy Daily-Driver swap right now is a Duramax in a '63 Impala sedan/wagon or a Powerstroke in a '64 Lincoln.

I thought it'd be cool to put a modern diesel in my dad's '51 Nash in place of its straight six.

The Nash was known as one of the most aerodynamic and fuel efficient cars of its day.

curtis73 wrote:

ignorant wrote: thats all going to change very shortly.. 2010 and 2012 will put a severe hurt on these crazy performance numbers.

Yeah, its frustrating, but at least for now they don't check emissions, so you can always do it illegally

yeah...

http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/eimscomm.getfile?p_download_id=36319

lung cancer.. Awesome.

If the EPA comes out with the report then well you know its bad....

This assessment concludes that [diesel exhaust] is likely to be carcinogenic to humans by inhalation, and that this hazard applies to environmental exposure ... based on the totality of evidence from human, animal and other supporting studies

I don't mean to anger anyone just to say that the risks posed by diesel exhaust are very bad and we have good cause to have the environmental controls that we do now. With the adoption of the DEF(urea) the engines and accessories(turbo's/DPF's) will be more reliable because you will need to use the turbo less as an emissions control device. The key is LESS. Turbos in the future will be getting smaller to drive more backpressure so that you can get more EGR flow.

ohh and with the DEF/Urea MPG will go back up... because right now I believe all modern diesels are too focused on advertising HP numbers and do not provide the economy they once did.

edit.. if you want real diesel power.. check this out.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lRXRLWVRg 12 cylinder 2 stroke 2 tubros 2 superchargers..

Agree, ignorant. Just like when people complained about EGR and air pumps and catalysts back in the 70s, we are going to have some growing pains with diesel emissions control as well, but I look forward to them being sorted out.

Another thing that dramatically helps diesel emissions is blends of biodiesel. I think higher blends of bio will help reduce the need for DPFs and urea... if we can keep enough bio production to keep up with demand.

One can definitely get serious power out of a diesel... I tried a powerbox in my TDI for a few hours... Simple $150 box turned the car from with "ho hum" acceleration into "holy crap!-throw-you-back-into-the-seat" little monster... and threw codes almost instantly... notto mention turned the power curve into an on-off switch... I took it off, reminding myself "this was not what I bought the car for..."

Was fun for a little while, though... made our pullied MCS feel slow...

Occasionally, I've have day-dreams of going whole-hog with mods: chip, turbo, exhaust, SMIC, injectors, and so on... along with swapping in a 6spd trans and clutch to handle it all... but then remember I'd still be saddled with a crappy Mk IV chassis...

Likewise, I had similar thought towards my '95 Cummins 12V (which is still the engine putting out the most HP in dyno comps)... but I'm in the "anti-soot" camp and refuse to drive a truck that spews out that kind of crap. It's bad enough that my TDI really needs an intake cleaning as if I really get on it, it'll leave a cloud of smoke in its wake.

Oddly enough, after 6 years of diesel ownership, and currently owning two (the TDI and the Cummins), I will probably sell both of them by the end of the year... after awhile, owning a diesel around here just becomes annoying...

curtis73 wrote: Diesel is just leaving its hot-rod, muscle-car era. We had our decade of enlightenment where we discovered crazy diesel power, then the government is coming in and making us more responsible to society as a whole. I'm a little disappointed in Americans' perspective on diesel, though. Most Americans never really accepted it as mainstream because of outdated and incorrect stereotypes.

FYP.

Seriously, having seen the 60's and 70's, do we not expect some action to be taken on the emissions?

BTW, funny thing that you bring up bio-diesel and urea- the use of one and the other is actually not related- the reason urea injection is used is to reduce NOx emission. Bio-diesel makes just as much NOx as does regular diesel, OR it would not be as efficicent, since NOx is generated at high combustion temperatures and current state of the art emissions controls has a very tough time reducing NOx without CO or HC's.

Will diesels ever be "clean enough"? No idea. I do know, for a fact, that most Euro "clean" diesels, are not. To be clean enough adds a lot more technology and money. And I also know that diesel is very much in trouble in Europe come 2015 when the Euro VI standards start, and the PM standards drop to what we now have in the US, and the NOx standards also drop to what we now have in the US for diesels. See, unlike the US, Europe allows diesels to be quite a bit dirtier than gas engines, with the consequence of rather bad air quality (at least in my observation)...

I would imagine that some break through will happen some day, where someone will develop a catalyst that will break down NOx into N2 and O2 without any help at low temps (say 900F). But that day is still pretty far out.

Eric

alfadriver wrote: current state of the art emissions controls has a very tough time reducing NOx without CO or HC's. far out.

bingo.

This is why we are going to urea. So we can get combustion temps up to get more efficiency but still get the n0x down by treating with urea.

That orange dodge is from my hometown but I've never seen it or heard of it until now

ignorant wrote:

alfadriver wrote: current state of the art emissions controls has a very tough time reducing NOx without CO or HC's. far out.

bingo. This is why we are going to urea. So we can get combustion temps up to get more efficiency but still get the n0x down by treating with urea.

But that is expensive enough to make it not price competitive with gasoline. At least for cars. The break through will be the exclusive NOx converter, with just a substance on a substrate.

E-

curtis73 wrote: "Chris has scored dyno runs of 1,237 hp with a calculated torque of more than 2,400 lb-ft." http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/0709dp_2001_dodge_ram_2500_cummins/index.html

I didn't read the link, but I do know that dynos do not measure HP, they measure torque (with a load cell). So a dyno that "calculates" torque is very suspicious.

Kendall

Kendall_Jones wrote: I didn't read the link, but I do know that dynos do not measure HP, they measure torque (with a load cell). So a dyno that "calculates" torque is very suspicious. Kendall

common misconception. Brake or load-cell dynos (like engine dynos) measure torque and calculate HP. Inertial dynos (like chassis dynos) measure HP and calculate torque. The brake dynos use some form of resistance. It measures the amount of resistance required to counteract the torque. Chassis dynos use a known inertial weight and calculates how quickly the driveline accelerates it.

Torque values from hopped-up race diesels commonly exceed 2000 lb-ft these days. Doubting torque figures is easily put to rest with a quick search

http://www.scheiddiesel.com/user_pages/dynoresults2_5.shtml?page=Extravaganza%202008&subpage=Dyno%20Saturday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCnXT1QOBkE

Do a search for "double overtime ford" and you'll find a 7.3L powerstroke making over 1800 hp and almost 3000 lb-ft.

alfadriver wrote: But that is expensive enough to make it not price competitive with gasoline. At least for cars. The break through will be the exclusive NOx converter, with just a substance on a substrate. E-

Honda's got one and is currently running it in europe.

http://www.greencar.com/articles/hondas-clean-diesel-debut-acura-models.php

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/116961/article.html

The last I saw in a technical publication, Honda is using a lean NOx trap (although that's from memory and I could be wrong. I'm not sure if that's what the articles are trying to describe or not.. 2007 and up Dodges with the Cummins have them too. Cummins is going over to SCR in 2010 (although the current engines are already 2010 compliant) for the increased fuel economy.

SCR means that there is a reduced need to drive EGR so additional backpressure isn't needed (except International since they're running EGR only).

Fuel economy should increase with SCR use since the engine can be run more efficiently (higher NOx out) and emmisions cleaned up with the SCR catalyst. Higher NOx also drives passive regeneration of the DPF reducing the need for active regens and fuel consumption although figure you'll burn 2-3 gallons of urea for every 100 gallons of diesel.

Expect another price hike to pay for SCR (you have to pay for the injection system, the can, catalysts, and NOx sensors). I don't konw about the light duty side but on the heavy duty side, they're talking another $5k to $10k price increase.

ignorant wrote:

alfadriver wrote: But that is expensive enough to make it not price competitive with gasoline. At least for cars. The break through will be the exclusive NOx converter, with just a substance on a substrate. E-

Honda's got one and is currently running it in europe. http://www.greencar.com/articles/hondas-clean-diesel-debut-acura-models.php http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/116961/article.html

And if it was clean enough + cheap enough, it would be in the states. There IS enough demand....

Therefore, it's enither not cheap, or not clean enough, or both.

I keep reading about this great Honda tech, but won't hold my breath. If it shows up on an Acura, it will partially answer at least half the question.

E-

alfadriver wrote:

ignorant wrote:

alfadriver wrote: But that is expensive enough to make it not price competitive with gasoline. At least for cars. The break through will be the exclusive NOx converter, with just a substance on a substrate. E-

Honda's got one and is currently running it in europe. http://www.greencar.com/articles/hondas-clean-diesel-debut-acura-models.php http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/116961/article.html

And if it was clean enough + cheap enough, it would be in the states. There IS enough demand.... Therefore, it's enither not cheap, or not clean enough, or both. I keep reading about this great Honda tech, but won't hold my breath. If it shows up on an Acura, it will partially answer at least half the question. E-

I've seen them in europe and they are insanely quiet. I think you are right on about the cost. I don't think what they are doing is close to being cheap for the standard american car buyer. Only time will tell.

ignorant wrote: I've seen them in europe and they are insanely quiet. I think you are right on about the cost. I don't think what they are doing is close to being cheap for the standard american car buyer. Only time will tell.

Having spend the last 3 years on a DI project (not gas), I'm sure that the noise issue is dealable. It's amazing what well engineered covers can do to even simple clicking noise.

It's cost and legality over the lifetime. And remember, 2015 will be an interesting year in Europe, too. Will the polo's and mini French cars be able to make the new emissions rules then, when they will be very close to the US standards. NOx and PM will be a big problem.

E-

When I ran a fleet of Dodge Ram Diesels, I remember seeing 1200+ HP trucks in magazines and in videos. Smoking all 4 20" tires through the 100foot mark is something!