Do any of you ever think about giving up this hobby?

Driven5 said:

In reply to roninsoldier83 :

You are not alone. I have had to get more introspective about my mental (not physical... yet) health lately too.  On the automotive hobby front, It's far too ingrained in me to think I could give it up, but I'm also finding myself a bit lost and in need of a renewed sense of direction. One of the hardest things to do when facing change, is to stop letting the past dictate the future.

That is the truth. Getting started down this path, it's tough not to get stuck in a cycle, even if it's seemingly destructive in nature. 

ddavidv said:

I'm also not hugely competitive, nor supremely talented. Racing is kind of pointless once you realize you have no chance at being a front-runner.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. 

Club racing is about friends and the shared on track experience. 90% of the people who go racing will never win their class. 

I've managed some really great results over the years but one of the best and most satisfying races I've ever had was for 17th overall. Three of us in woefully uncompetitive cars swapped places a couple times a lap for 10 laps. It was a fantastic experience that few other sports can offer.

Most people suck at Golf but they go because it's time with friends in a shared experience................that's what club racing is all about.

I used to love autocrossing, but after 10 years of doing it I decided the ROI was no longer there for me. Both in terms of cost and run time vs total time investment. 

Started autocrossing my DD, then bought a dedicated racecar. Got tired of it eating diffs basically every event and rules that prevented a fix for that. 

Even if I were to go back and run a "street" car, you can choose between an alignment that tires alive, or being uncompetitive. So you still need a dedicated racecar if you want to win, even in street classes.

Tom1200 said:

ddavidv said:

I'm also not hugely competitive, nor supremely talented. Racing is kind of pointless once you realize you have no chance at being a front-runner.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. 

Club racing is about friends and the shared on track experience. 90% of the people who go racing will never win their class. 

I've managed some really great results over the years but one of the best and most satisfying races I've ever had was for 17th overall. Three of us in woefully uncompetitive cars swapped places a couple times a lap for 10 laps. It was a fantastic experience that few other sports can offer.

Most people suck at Golf but they go because it's time with friends in a shared experience................that's what club racing is all about.

 

I used to be in the camp of thinking racing was pointless if you're not winning and then I realized that everyone around me was having a lot more fun while not being competitive at the same time. I just think it depends on why you race and what you value in it.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

I agree that you don't have to be winning to have fun, but I think racing is considerably more fun if it's at least competitive. Some of the most fun days I had were when my runs were close to the top 1-2 guys- it didn't matter who won, as it seemingly pushed all of us to eek the last bit of oomph out of the cars. I find the competition aspect to be very enjoyable- especially if you're around good-natured, competitive folk who are up to a good challenge. Otherwise, I would just stick to open lapping and test & tune days. 

roninsoldier83 said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

I agree that you don't have to be winning to have fun, but I think racing is considerably more fun if it's at least competitive. Some of the most fun days I had were when my runs were close to the top 1-2 guys- it didn't matter who won, as it seemingly pushed all of us to eek the last bit of oomph out of the cars. I find the competition aspect to be very enjoyable- especially if you're around good-natured, competitive folk who are up to a good challenge. Otherwise, I would just stick to open lapping and test & tune days. 

I completely agree. Its actually why these days I mostly just autocross or do track days. To me, competition is important and I do prefer running at the pointy end as a form of personal accomplishment so I'd rather not burn tons of cash racing and risking crash damage to not run at my best. The best part about what I do is I just drive a nice reliable car (Miatas) so I don't have to wrench much but I keep my skills up. Its more fun that way.

If I ever get the competitive itch again, I'll co-drive a competitive car in autocross or rent a race car from a front running team.

Yes.

I arrived at the decision to sell my cars on the following:

1. Traffic around here has taken away the joy of driving anything sporty. It took one hour to commute home every day, an average speed of 25mph. Having something with 300-500hp - and paying insurance on it - starts feeling a little silly. Driving down the coast is nice - except that you're averaging about 10mph. Driving from Orange County to home - a one-hr drive in no traffic, is not fun when it takes three hours - in a manual transmission car. Devotees of manual transmissions in urban areas, I bid you well.

2. With the cars I built from scratch, I painted myself into a corner, putting so much time and money into them that I became anxious about damaging them - potentially having to spend $$$$ to fix the drivetrain. This made driving on-track much less enjoyable, worrying more about damage and cost than going fast.

3. Autocross: I participated for about eight years, really getting into it for a while, pleased to see what my lowly Datsun 1200 could beat. Then, what was an awesomely huge parking lot started changing. They disallowed dispensing lime to mark the course, but I adjusted, knowing that it affected all drivers equally. More concerning was that the lot started shrinking, starting with the installation of the Metro trolley line that ate up maybe 25% of the lot, causing the courses to get smaller. Back then, running costs weren't an issue - the Datsun was small and light, so consumables lasted a long time. The entry fees were around $20-30 if I recall, so finances were a non-issue. Standing in the hot sun (San Diego) all day started sucking the fun out of it. Though others may argue; three minutes of track time for an all-day outing is a negative influence. Then I discovered trackday events and my interest dropped to zero. That parking lot is now gone, and the next closest autox events are much further away, making a long day even longer. Don't miss it.

4. Trackdays: Enjoyed these a lot, but then they changed as well. Back when I got started, everyone worked on their own cars, they often had Bondo and primer on them, and we didn't care. People walked through the pits, talking to everyone else and comparing notes. But as the car market changed, so did trackday attendees. Starting about 15 years ago, people started being able to buy cars that had really good performance right out of the box. What ended up happening was a pit full of nearly-new very capable cars. Being new and fast meant hardly anyone worked on them, so no reason to talk to anyone. The pit experience changed to everyone keeping to themselves, or only talking to people with the same car. The sense of comradery was gone. Obviously, just my opinion.

5. Related to #4: I realized that technology had moved to a point where I, one guy in a garage with a hobby budget, could no longer build something that could beat cars costing ten times as much, driven by people who didn't have the same level of mechanical sympathy that I did, had much deeper pockets in case something went wrong, and had all sorts of nanny electronics to babysit them if they got in over their heads.

Conclusion: so, yeah, I've given it up, turning my love of making stuff to building tools for my shop - the latest being a 1,000-lb CNC router. We now drive a virtually invisible compact SUV and  every time I see an expensive sports car stuck in traffic, I wonder how much he's enjoying himself, frustrated at not being able to open it up, and having anxiety over door dings, fender benders, and when will his warrantee end.

In reply to roninsoldier83 :

It's ironic you mention track days. I was going to tell you that in the short term why don't you take the BMW or S2000 to an event and just enjoy driving it at 8/10ths. This way you can take a break from the Integra.

roninsoldier83 said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

I agree that you don't have to be winning to have fun, but I think racing is considerably more fun if it's at least competitive. Some of the most fun days I had were when my runs were close to the top 1-2 guys- it didn't matter who won, as it seemingly pushed all of us to eek the last bit of oomph out of the cars. I find the competition aspect to be very enjoyable- especially if you're around good-natured, competitive folk who are up to a good challenge. Otherwise, I would just stick to open lapping and test & tune days. 

It sounds like you might need more than just the sensation of speed and 'competing' against yourself, which is an important reflection. But how much of what you experienced that day came from the specific position you were competing for, and how much of it came from the nature of the competition itself?

The mistake many people make in life is overly conflating competition with winning. Competition and winning are largely independent concepts. They can happen simultaneously, but by no means need to. You can win without having any competition, and you can have competition without winning. If anything, there are inherently many times more opportunities to have competitive battles for 'not first' than there are for first.

People who become too focused on winning are more likely to lose even if they win.

If one of your main concerns is about restrictive rule sets and 'it' cars, perhaps the solution is also less leaving the hobby entirely than it is about moving to a different part of it. That's one of the things that excites me most about trying W2W with Lucky Dog. Very open rules, older cars, and classing based on lap time limits make is so a huge variety of cars and budgets can all have a place to be competitive. Hell, one build is currently swapping a ~160whp 4-cyl into a C5 Corvette, with the intention of being more competitive in a slower class rather than less competitive in the fastest class.

I totally get it.  Read my intro

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/2002-vw-gti-vr6-24v-my-return-to-fun-with-cars/256923/page1/

My path was to buy a cheap project with a goal and reasonable expectations.  I've been successful and competitive.  Now I just want something that will give me a rush for a day without caring about my finish position and something to prep, alone just me and my thoughts, listening to the radio and just relaxing.  That's enough at this stage.

Tinkering along this project is bringing me such peace and enjoyment again.

To be clear I am an intensely competitive person when it comes to driving. In the video I linked I'm driving the wheels off that car for 10th overall but I am also adamant about my sanity.

Fun keeps me sane...............turning the hobby into a second job sucks the fun out of it.

I spent my afternoon in a make-out session with an octopus... 

This made me LOL

4. Trackdays: Enjoyed these a lot, but then they changed as well. Back when I got started, everyone worked on their own cars, they often had Bondo and primer on them, and we didn't care. People walked through the pits, talking to everyone else and comparing notes. But as the car market changed, so did trackday attendees. Starting about 15 years ago, people started being able to buy cars that had really good performance right out of the box. What ended up happening was a pit-full of nearly-new very capable cars. With all the electronics and being new, hardly anyone worked on their own cars. The pit experience changed to everyone keeping to themselves, or only talking to people with the same car. The sense of comradery was gone. Obviously, just my opinion.

5. Related to #4: I realized that technology had moved to a point where I, one guy in a garage with a hobby budget, could no longer build something that could beat cars costing ten times as much, driven by people who didn't have the same level of mechanical sympathy that I did, had much deeper pockets in case something went wrong, and had all sorts of nanny electronics to babysit them if they got in over their heads.

This is exactly why I hung up my helmet.  These two reasons plus some really poor experiences with the Spec Miata crowd. They seemed to think they were the only ones that had a right to be on the track and all other classes needed to bow down to them.. . . Ya and with that I was done with racing.  I assume it was the racing environment that the SCCA wanted.  

Nowadays I keep busy with car projects.  My latest is a plug-and-play stand-alone for a 996 turbo that will interface with the stock security system.  I did the same for the 944 turbo a number of years ago.  Really fun project if you get all geeked out with car electronics.

EDIT:  I still have an idea for a challenge build that I hope to get to someday.  I just need to find a very specific car for it and that has proven difficult. 

dean1484 said:

I spent my afternoon in a make-out session with an octopus... 

This made me LOL

 

4. Trackdays: Enjoyed these a lot, but then they changed as well. Back when I got started, everyone worked on their own cars, they often had Bondo and primer on them, and we didn't care. People walked through the pits, talking to everyone else and comparing notes. But as the car market changed, so did trackday attendees. Starting about 15 years ago, people started being able to buy cars that had really good performance right out of the box. What ended up happening was a pit-full of nearly-new very capable cars. With all the electronics and being new, hardly anyone worked on their own cars. The pit experience changed to everyone keeping to themselves, or only talking to people with the same car. The sense of comradery was gone. Obviously, just my opinion.

5. Related to #4: I realized that technology had moved to a point where I, one guy in a garage with a hobby budget, could no longer build something that could beat cars costing ten times as much, driven by people who didn't have the same level of mechanical sympathy that I did, had much deeper pockets in case something went wrong, and had all sorts of nanny electronics to babysit them if they got in over their heads.

This is exactly why I hung up my helmet.  These two reasons plus some really poor experiences with the Spec Miata crowd. They seemed to think they were the only ones that had a right to be on the track and all other classes needed to bow down to them.. . . Ya and with that I was done with racing.  I assume it was the racing environment that the SCCA wanted.  

Nowadays I keep busy with car projects.  My latest is a plug-and-play stand-alone for a 996 turbo that will interface with the stock security system.  I did the same for the 944 turbo a number of years ago.  Really fun project if you get all geeked out with car electronics.

I definitely think the paddock environment of SCCA (specifically Spec Miata) is a bit more serious than other classes, thats for sure. I've had both experiences with NASA/SCCA but of course, your region may vary.

I run with a small vintage club and the Saturday night BBQ & Karaoke seems to be just as important as the actual racing............................

As for Spec Miata; it's a great class but many people are very very serious about it. That's fine but it's not for me.

I need a class with a lot of community. Formula 600 / F- Modified seems to have that. If I ever go back to SCCA club racing it will be in F600.

I no longer compete in car events but as long as I can drive a sports car and appreciate the difference between that and a mundane truck-like utility vehicle, I will own sports cars.

In the past few years I dialed back the number of events I run each year. I used to run all of them It was expensive and busy.

After a while it stopped being something to look forward to and started being something I had to do.

Coupled with quitting my job to become a full time student, A lack of trust in my local sanctioning bodyvs commitment to safety, and a global pandemic, I've all but stopped competing.

I did tag along to a hillclimb with another member strictly to film and had a blast. 

I've also thrown in with a group on here in building a wheel to wheel endurance car. My knee injuries prevent me from driving a manual anymore so I've taken on a more auxiliary support role. Team mom. 

I do plan on returning to racing at some point, but until then there are plenty of racing adjacent things to keep me happy.

A lot of things seem to rhyme here....  lack of close venues, costs, time, and not enough fun per dollar.  

While I run the Rio in Sundae Cup it's to go do track things with friends. I've never been a great driver, so I will always be back there. The best events are when someone else with similar skills/talent and car and I really battle all weekend dropping time together swapping positions. 
 

But yeah, I think about selling it all and taking up drugs instead. Has to be cheaper and probably easier to explain to the wife. 

Driven5 said:

It sounds like you might need more than just the sensation of speed and 'competing' against yourself, which is an important reflection. But how much of what you experienced that day came from the specific position you were competing for, and how much of it came from the nature of the competition itself?

The mistake many people make in life is overly conflating competition with winning. Competition and winning are largely independent concepts. They can happen simultaneously, but by no means need to. You can win without having any competition, and you can have competition without winning. If anything, there are inherently many times more opportunities to have competitive battles for 'not first' than there are for first.

People who become too focused on winning are more likely to lose even if they win.

If one of your main concerns is about restrictive rule sets and 'it' cars, perhaps the solution is also less leaving the hobby entirely than it is about moving to a different part of it. That's one of the things that excites me most about trying W2W with Lucky Dog. Very open rules, older cars, and classing based on lap time limits make is so a huge variety of cars and budgets can all have a place to be competitive. Hell, one build is currently swapping a ~160whp 4-cyl into a C5 Corvette, with the intention of being more competitive in a slower class rather than less competitive in the fastest class.

If I'm being honest, I thrive on personal growth. I don't mind failure, as there's a lot more to learn in failing than there typically is in success. I've always been fairly competitive, at a multitude of areas in my life, but probably not for the reasons most folks might think. 

In a plethora of areas in my life I keep track of personal bests, that I constantly try to push myself to overcome. It's one of the great joys of my life. 

When it comes to racing, a couple of the guys that used to regularly kick my butt, actually became my closest friends in that arena of my life. I learned a tremendous amount from them and got faster and more consistent as a result. If/when they beat me, I shook their hands and told him how great of a job I thought they did- and more importantly, when I said it, I meant it. I genuinely wanted them to succeed and I don't have to win in order for all of us to do well. 

The beauty of competition for me is the old adage: iron sharpens iron. Having the privilege of competing with talented drivers made me a better driver. Watching them and learning from them allowed me to grow in ways I might not have been able to do on my own. Competition makes the breed better. And the camaraderie makes the sport a whole lot more fun. 

With that said, that doesn't mean I don't occasionally have a case of the "what if's"... If I'm at an inherent disadvantage due to the car I'm driving, I'll never know how fast I might be. I might not be able to answer the question: is it my lack of skill holding me back? Or is it the car? The answer is generally a bit of both haha. I spent quite a bit of time doing open lapping days and test and tune autoX days... I also spent quite a bit of time competing in a car that wasn't the "car to have". I know I always have more to learn, but to answer some of those tough questions, I figured the only way to know is to actually get the right car or setup. I've been fortunate enough to collect a few trophies on a shelf in my garage that I could care less about... I'm really just seeking personal growth and trying to answer the "what if's". No excuses. My thought was to build the best car(s) I could so that the only excuse I had if I didn't succeed was my own skill level, to help me see where I could grow and get faster.  

Unfortunately, that mentality has taken me down a fairly rocky road here lately haha! 

never. I have just had an evolution of how I enjoy the hobby. 

I've got one other add to topic:

About a decade ago my wife convinced my to stop doing project cars. This is not to be confused with bringIng home cars.

I was very happy that I did this when I bought the Formula 500 rather than buying a project car.

Tom1200 said:

ddavidv said:

I'm also not hugely competitive, nor supremely talented. Racing is kind of pointless once you realize you have no chance at being a front-runner.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. 

Club racing is about friends and the shared on track experience. 90% of the people who go racing will never win their class. 

I've managed some really great results over the years but one of the best and most satisfying races I've ever had was for 17th overall. Three of us in woefully uncompetitive cars swapped places a couple times a lap for 10 laps. It was a fantastic experience that few other sports can offer.

Most people suck at Golf but they go because it's time with friends in a shared experience................that's what club racing is all about.

 

You aren't wrong. The social aspect is a wonderful part of it. I also do rate some of my racing highlights by the battles I had for 7th place or whatever. Unfortunately, those battles were very rare and I mostly just circled the track like I was in an HPDE, hoping I wouldn't get lapped by the end of the race. And I was a mid-pack driver.

I do miss some of the social aspects, and the feel of drifting across the track at 10/10ths going through a turn faster than the other guys can, but it just isn't enough to justify the high cost. Plus, seeing a competitor or two have their car totaled by a truly inept driver who can't even be bothered to apologize will put a sour taste in your mouth.

ddavidv said:

Tom1200 said:

ddavidv said:

I'm also not hugely competitive, nor supremely talented. Racing is kind of pointless once you realize you have no chance at being a front-runner.

I would wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. 

Club racing is about friends and the shared on track experience. 90% of the people who go racing will never win their class. 

I've managed some really great results over the years but one of the best and most satisfying races I've ever had was for 17th overall. Three of us in woefully uncompetitive cars swapped places a couple times a lap for 10 laps. It was a fantastic experience that few other sports can offer.

Most people suck at Golf but they go because it's time with friends in a shared experience................that's what club racing is all about.

 

You aren't wrong. The social aspect is a wonderful part of it. I also do rate some of my racing highlights by the battles I had for 7th place or whatever. Unfortunately, those battles were very rare and I mostly just circled the track like I was in an HPDE, hoping I wouldn't get lapped by the end of the race. And I was a mid-pack driver.

I do miss some of the social aspects, and the feel of drifting across the track at 10/10ths going through a turn faster than the other guys can, but it just isn't enough to justify the high cost. Plus, seeing a competitor or two have their car totaled by a truly inept driver who can't even be bothered to apologize will put a sour taste in your mouth.

I guess depends on the group you run with. I've seen plenty of crashed cars in the last 3 years, but other than the wheel 2 wheel of GLTC I've not seen one caused by anyone but the driver of said car. And those guys have come out and apologized to the run group for screwing up the session. 

There are ways to do it cheaply. Work the events, help out and get reduced or free entries. Sure, it's not easy but its worth it IMO. Those nights at the track with friends, and the early morning when the suns coming up on a quiet track are 100% nirvana for me. 

I've mostly given up the hobby, or put it on a long term pause.  Right now "racing" for me is hopping in my sim rig on tuesday or wednesday nights with a group of guys here for two 15 minute races.  Its fun, and its the right fit for my life at the moment.

I realized I'll never be the fastest guy on track.  I've got a very high survival instinct, both for myself and my car.  I always want to drive it home in the same condition it arrives in.  Even when I had a "dedicated" track car and a trailer, I still couldn't hang it all out.  The car was just too nice and I didn't want to hurt it or myself.

I stopped doing NASA TT because it became far too serious.  It's not fun being out on track with people trying to shave 0.01 off their times and are willing to do stupid stuff on track to get there.  Also most of my friends stopped running, so it wasn't nearly as fun.

I did some auto-x, but the lot here is kinda small and the time spent vs seat time quotient just doesn't make sense.  I usually run track days with the PCA, they run a nice event, I get plenty of track time and see some friends.  Lately life has been getting in the way tho, I think I only got 3 days this season?  So I've been trying to keep the car as street civilized as possible, as that's how I mostly use it.  I do like playing with it tho and try to make 1 "improvement" a year on it.

I'd like to get more track days with it, but I guess I'll see how next year goes. 

I do most of the wrenching myself on all the cars but I find that as I'm getting older, I need to be more careful about the jobs I take on.  The suspension install on my Land Cruiser kicked my butt far more than I expected.  So I need to be aware of how I feel, make sure I'm eating/drinking enough and maybe take more time to get those type of jobs done now.

Building a TT car like you're doing is always a huge endeavor, both in time and cost.  That's just to get it on track, let alone build it into something that can be competitive to win.  My advice would be to decide what you enjoy, the experience of building?  Of driving on track?  Or winning?  Because all of them are very different things and will drive decisions in time/money etc.

Happy to meet over beers/whatever and talk cars if you ever want to, just drop me a line.