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I'm no racer, but one of our more consistent local winners uses the cheapest organic pads he can find for his Camaro in the cones. When he hauls it to a stop at the end, you can see puffs of orange flames coming off the clouds of dust from the pads. His rationale is that the short runs don't get them hot enough to be an issue, and (since he drives it on the street) the organic pads don't shred the rotors. Any glazing he gets during the few runs he does are easily scrubbed away on the trip home and he's left with normal street braking again.
That's just an anecdote from one racer, but that was his story and he's sticking to it.
I use craptastical ordinary pads I the Datsun I road race. Note I have Z car brakes on a 1600lb car so heat isn't an issue. I'm also not giving up and performance to people using high end race pads. When I raced a showroom stock Miata I tried both the Hawk Pads and the stock Mazda pads and found the same thing the test did, the Hawk pads had better feel but the more aggressive pad also went through rotors faster. I went to the stock pads for this reason. Basically I don't think there is a wrong answer here.
Oh hi, Per Schroeder.
Very interesting. I have tried quite a few pads on the FiST and found much of the same to be true. Track pads worked great on the track, but for autocross they were lightswitches with no modulation at all. Some national-level folks actually prefer the OEM pads from Ford, but even at that, there are two different part #s available based on year and one is better than the other.
My WAG is grippier pads would only be a benefit with equally grippy tires. Otherwise, you are just trying to not lock up or engage the ABS as much?
And I'm also surprised to see a post by Per?
I'm with Curtis on this one, although the camaro with race brakes that runs locally does look cool in pictures with the glowing rotors on course.
Per? Are you ...back? Like for real?
I prefer R4S versus R4E for autocrossing, but once you get to higher speeds and longer runs when temperatures can be reached and held, my preference shifts to R4E.
Mezzanine said:Per? Are you ...back? Like for real?
Holy crap I didn't even catch that.
Mezzanine said:Per? Are you ...back? Like for real?
The article is from the February 2011 issue, they posted it under his name since he wrote it.
So no, he's not back, but he has been known to lurk here.
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:Mezzanine said:Per? Are you ...back? Like for real?
The article is from the February 2011 issue, they posted it under his name since he wrote it.
So no, he's not back, but he has been known to lurk here.
Correct. But if you're in the market for Porsche parts, Per has been at Stoddard Porsche outside Cleveland ever since he and Kim moved back north with their kiddos. Give him/them a call!
Margie
As someone who has autocrossed a prepped NC Miata I can absolutely confirm that better brakes make you faster. The first time I drove my (now former) car I blew through the outside of a few corners. The car simply didn't have the bite in the pads to slow down. So I had to adjust and brake earlier.
If I'm braking earlier, I'm off the gas and not going as fast as I theoretically could be.
So when I bought the car it for high end rotors and HPS 5.0 pads which were VASTLY better than the OEM pads it had come with. (This was even more noticeable when I went to Hoosiers, even the Hawk pads weren't enough to get into ABS then.)
Beetlejuice!
A guy who used to kick ass locally in a B/Street AP1 S2000 was not only running stock brakes, they were the original pads that had left the factory with the car 75,000 miles earlier. I would take that as BS, but the guy was not the type to tell tall tales.
I like the feel of HPS/R4S for autox. Sure, they may not physically stop faster, but the feel is different. Since most of what we do is by feel (where's that maximum grip without push, when can I get the back on the throttle without oversteer etc) that can make the difference.
Just my non-professional, 12 year experience. I've run Tubey stock pads, stock upgraded pads/rotors (size) and blues. The stock pads just feel.... lack luster after having good pads on it.
In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) :
Interesting, I had the opposite experience in my 2006 Sport that I prepped for STR. I never felt the need to upgrade the pads. They had great bite and the ABS programming seemed right on for my driving style. I definitely had to stand on the pedal but I always got what I needed in terms of bite and braking.
On a Honda 96 Civic 3 door with 99-00 civic Si brakes all around the HP+ did not want to stop the car first time around on freezing ish mornings or after awhile without using the brakes if it was that cold. Its was pretty spooky a couple times... The HPS that went on next would work fine when freezing- Which seems about right in line with what Hawk describes as the general use scenario for the respective pads at the bottom side of the heat zone.
I run Hawk HP+ for stage rally, but find that when i rallycross the first several braking zones on course I have no bite to speak of until they warm up. I usually will drag the brakes from grid to start to try to get some heat in them, but even that doesn't work well. Now I switch back to HPS for rallycross.
I admit to running Hawk BLues on the Tib through winter. I know, I am a terrible and lazy person. but down to freezing temps they were fine. below freezing the first stop wasn't as crisp, but after the first one they worked. Sure, there's rotor wear but that is expected IMO on a pad this aggressive.
I'm another oem nc pad user for STR. I've not seen the "need to bleed the speed" on course, and where the oem pads fail it. In fact, for autocross, I can only see upgrading brakes so you don't blow the stop box (I've seen many do this locally, but my nc does fine.)
I bought my last dedicatd autocross car from a hard parker. The owner managed to find a set of brake pads that faded after three autocross 55-25mph brake zones. As I got faster, I started getting random soft pedals that I couldn't figure out. I spent a bunch of time chasing down bubbles and brake fluid compounds. Someone finally suggested a different pad and it solved all my problems.
Unless you have awful parts that just arent up to the task, its all more about feel and driver comfort, especially on an ABS car.
As an aside, one of the most prevalent mistakes I see in newer and even medium experience autocrossers is being so aggressive on the brakes they totally screw up their corner entry (which totally screws the whole corner). Less touchy brakes, even if you get less raw stopping power from them, may actually be advantageous to prevent this.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:I run Hawk HP+ for stage rally, but find that when i rallycross the first several braking zones on course I have no bite to speak of until they warm up. I usually will drag the brakes from grid to start to try to get some heat in them, but even that doesn't work well. Now I switch back to HPS for rallycross.
Interesting. According to Hawk, the HP+ has more friction than HPS at all temperatures:
Great compilation of data, imbedded in a really useful article.
The NA and NB Miatas that compete in E Street have some unique requirements.
Due to the significant front bias engineered into the platform, many of us will try to use a different pad front to rear to try to shift some of the brake bias to the rear.
My NB1 had been set up in such a manner when I bought it. The brake bias is probably as good as it could be (still locks up the front first), but it's got too firm of a pedal (my usual preference is a firm pedal) that makes it hard to modulate. I'm hoping fresh fluid will make a difference.
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