Recon1342 said:How do we get them to stay engaged as a driver instead of checking out and counting on the technology?
Link all of their cars together and have someone at the front drive for them? I feel like this is something we've already invented though.
In reply to MTechnically :
Modern flying is just about completely automated. Yet if you want to FLY you can grab a Pitts special or something similar and have at it.
Same with driving. Track days are getting more and more popular, While driving itself isn't.
I guess there's a bell curve. I personally feel like I could be marginally safer with this technology although I'd be annoyed by most of it.
There's people that need it to just stay alive or not kill someone. Most other people fall somewhere between the two.
I'm in the medical field and I've found myself in disagreement with patients guardians who were advocating for mobility aids before they were needed. I had to tell them that as soon as you get them dependent on one, getting them out of it will be next to impossible as they will quickly lose their ability to use their own bodies to complete the task.
That sums up my thoughts about some of this stuff. Regular cruise control and ABS notwithstanding.
I can say the blind-spot monitoring on the Mazda 3 saved me from an accident a few months, because of a careless driver.
I'm driving into work LONG before the sun comes up, it's raining. Check mirror, check over left shoulder, hit turn signal beepbeepbeepbeepbeep.
Someone came flying up easily 20-25 mph over the speed limit without ANY lights on (no headlights, parking lights, etc). That would have made for a crummy start to the day.
Keep in mind folks, we are incredibly close to 5g connectivity that will allow (in my opinion) a whole new level of connectivity between vehicles and processors as well as coordinating movements between EACHOTHER. I feel a bit Orwellian, but I honestly believe autonomy will be here soonish, and with it many positives from a safety and productivity standpoint (as well as general electrification).
This will have many drawbacks to those of us who prefer the more tactile experience, I am not foolish enough to believe there is something I can do in a vehicle that technology soon wont be able to do even better. As long as they do not outlaw early 90s internal combustion vehicles, I should be fine with the transition.
My biggest fear is the whole "Big Brother Watching" aspect to be honest.....
In reply to Olemiss540 :
As long as Huawei doesn't beat us to it!
ebelements said:I'm surprised we're not more dead. We're all morons. It's hard, even as someone who thinks they're doing it right most of the time, to keep your eyes off that black glass and metal rectangle when it chimes and lights up in the cupholder.
So true. Two weeks ago I saw a woman literally watching some drama on her phone (held up with left hand around where the side mirror is...) while driving on the highway during rush hour. Thankfully she was just staying in the slow lane and not swerving in and out. I really wish there was an app where we can record and report E36 M3 like this...
In my experience, ABS, traction control, and stability control perform very differently depending on the vehicle. Too much variation to give an overall “good” or “bad” score.
In my limited experience with more advanced features, I’d expect the same. I will note that the lane keeping, blind spot monitoring, and auto braking features in my Wife’s new car appear to be very unobtrusive if I’m driving “properly,” using my turn signal and maintaining a safe distance. The only time I get beeped at is when I purposely signal early to tuck in behind a passing car.
While I guess some of these features could make a driver more lazy, counting on the tech to save them- I think that only a very, very small group of drivers would actually change their behaviors just because they have them. People don’t hammer their brakes at every stop sign because the have ABS, floor it from a stop because they have traction control, or drive at the edge of the traction circle because they have stability control. I think of the features more like safety blankets. Rarely/ never used to avoid a crash by most drivers, but nice to have in the rare moment of need. Bad drivers are going to be bad regardless, if the tech helps them avoid hitting me, I’m all for it. Now, for me personally, I want everything defeatable, but would most likely leave it alone for my commute.
In reply to Boost_Crazy :
I have to say, your post is very compelling.
ebelements said:As an occasional motorcyclist and even less occasional bicyclist and a one time NA Miatacist I am a big fan of some of these nannies for other people. They didn't pay attention to anything smaller than an Explorer BEFORE phones and now it's unquestionably worse. Someone mentioned something about how the death rate is more or less the same with these new AI safety features, but along with said features proliferation there has also been a rocketlike upward trajectory in personal annoyance technologies, you know, with the selfies and the vines and the candy crushes.
I'm surprised we're not more dead. We're all morons. It's hard, even as someone who thinks they're doing it right most of the time, to keep your eyes off that black glass and metal rectangle when it chimes and lights up in the cupholder.Anyways, not sure if it's been mentioned, but with newer cars, the crashworthiness standards are giving us less and less glass, and some of these cars would be downright dangerous without blind spot monitoring or the rearview cameras with that infernal beeping nonsense.
That's one thing new cars do have, hands free cell phones. My truck is blue tooth connected so I get a phone call or want to send one it's push the button on the steering wheel and talk. phone home, phone work etc. no need to look it up, just talk. It can even "read" your text messages for you. Or I can send them.
May look weird me holding a conversation with nobody. But my hands are on the steering wheel and my head is looking where I'm going.
Oh and no I don't have an earphone on. I think the microphone is up by the rear view mirror someplace and the speaker is the radio speaker.
I like having ABS – apparently I've managed to miss the vehicles discussed above where it kinda sucked – because I know I can't brake that fast myself. I like having stability control, because no matter how good a driver I am, I can't brake just one wheel in such a way as to maintain/restore my desired trajectory (or do the other tricks it does.)
We now have 1700 km on the new Odyssey, and I'm devoting a lot of time to figuring out how to turn the rest of the "safety" stuff the hell off. So far I've disabled the berking robot that grabs my wheel when I cross a line without signalling (like the spot I travel over regularly where the lines were poorly painted) and I'm working on the one that flashes "BRAKE" at me, in black on an orange background, when I get "too close" to a vehicle that's already accelerating away from me around a corner.
I think the distinction boils down to, Let the car do car stuff that it can do better than I can, but let the human do what the human does better. (Frenchy's blind-spot warnings are a good example of a grey area; I don't know if the Odyssey has those, or if I'll like them.)
The human eye is hardwired to look at new moving things it sees. I already have to consciously disregard the radio (sorry, audio-visual display) that constantly updates itself with unnecessary information about what station I'm listening to. (I know what it is, thanks; I tuned it.) I really don't need a flashed warning on my dash taking my attention away from the situation that got it all excited in the first place.
Years ago, I read that Mercedes-Benz decided to put stability control on everything when their accident-investigation department discovered that cars that had it got into crashes 20% less often than expected. (Somebody please correct me if I've got the exact number wrong.) As we all know, an improvement like that from one technology simply doesn't happen... until it does, and then, if you're smart, you go all in.
I recognize that interconnected pods would probably be safer than cars, but I don't know if the intermediate stage we're in right now is a net gain. Does anybody know of any real-world data about how these new gadgets are actually working out, or is it too soon?
Anyways, not sure if it's been mentioned, but with newer cars, the crashworthiness standards are giving us less and less glass, and some of these cars would be downright dangerous without blind spot monitoring or the rearview cameras with that infernal beeping nonsense.
That's one thing new cars do have, hands free cell phones. My truck is blue tooth connected so I get a phone call or want to send one it's push the button on the steering wheel and talk. phone home, phone work etc. no need to look it up, just talk. It can even "read" your text messages for you. Or I can send them.
May look weird me holding a conversation with nobody. But my hands are on the steering wheel and my head is looking where I'm going.Oh and no I don't have an earphone on. I think the microphone is up by the rear view mirror someplace and the speaker is the radio speaker.
I would love to see a test of whether a hands free device makes any difference to the actual safety of the driver.
"You sold my baseball cards?" shouted into mid air doesn't seem like it is giving you more focus than shouting, "You sold my baseball cards?" into a small handheld box.
I'm quite competent driving with one hand, but I am significantly less competent when my mind is on something other than hurtling down the road in two and a half tons of death machine.
Texting is, of course, the devil's work whether you are driving or not.
Wow, that's a lot to read. I get to drive all kinds of cars at work and there's two of these nannies that bother me. The adaptive cruise, even on the nearest setting slows the vehicle too much when there's still a good gap.
The auto braking crash avoidance system makes for some jerky driving by slamming on the brakes when someone cuts in front of you. Or if I'm accelerating to pass a car, move over to the next lane a hair too close it puts the brakes on scaring me and upsetting the vehicle I'm in.
Well there's three of them, lane keep assist, at least that one can be turned off.
None of my cars have these nannies, so I think I'll be keeping them for another five years or so til the next round of nannies come out.
I think I'll go take my 85 RX-7 SE out for a drive to the country....
frenchyd said:In reply to Recon1342 :
With the congestion on the roads we need every bit of help we can get. My school bus has massive blind spots behind mirrors that require me to constantly rock and roll back and forth looking around those.
I get a backup camera, lane departure and proximity alarms in a new Miata, and a school bus carrying children relies on mirrors and the goodwill of other drivers, perfect
I like the ABS brakes, mostly, AWD is sort of mind bendingly impressive at times. Mom's hybrid Lexus SUV is the only car I have driven enough to comment that has all the stuff. Backup camera on is necessary. The video game dash is a bit distracting, you can tell if it is on battery, ICE or both, FAST for a van, electric instant on torque boost is amazing. I turn off the alarms for proximity and lane departure. I bet the sensors for that are $$$, wonder how much a corner hit would cost on that thing.
I turn the nanny stuff off most of the time, ABS I would keep. I can see how it would make other people even more inattentive, so it seems a bit of a two edged sword. Self driving cars have been coming a long time. I have no interest in one. I suspect they could be "hacked" and seem to recall it already happening. Would you be able to take over control of a car and kidnap or kill someone? That would make an excellent movie, I am thinking Gary Oldman as the bad guy
Stealthtercel said:I like having ABS – apparently I've managed to miss the vehicles discussed above where it kinda sucked – because I know I can't brake that fast myself. I like having stability control, because no matter how good a driver I am, I can't brake just one wheel in such a way as to maintain/restore my desired trajectory (or do the other tricks it does.)
We now have 1700 km on the new Odyssey, and I'm devoting a lot of time to figuring out how to turn the rest of the "safety" stuff the hell off. So far I've disabled the berking robot that grabs my wheel when I cross a line without signalling (like the spot I travel over regularly where the lines were poorly painted) and I'm working on the one that flashes "BRAKE" at me, in black on an orange background, when I get "too close" to a vehicle that's already accelerating away from me around a corner.
I think the distinction boils down to, Let the car do car stuff that it can do better than I can, but let the human do what the human does better. (Frenchy's blind-spot warnings are a good example of a grey area; I don't know if the Odyssey has those, or if I'll like them.)
The human eye is hardwired to look at new moving things it sees. I already have to consciously disregard the radio (sorry, audio-visual display) that constantly updates itself with unnecessary information about what station I'm listening to. (I know what it is, thanks; I tuned it.) I really don't need a flashed warning on my dash taking my attention away from the situation that got it all excited in the first place.
Years ago, I read that Mercedes-Benz decided to put stability control on everything when their accident-investigation department discovered that cars that had it got into crashes 20% less often than expected. (Somebody please correct me if I've got the exact number wrong.) As we all know, an improvement like that from one technology simply doesn't happen... until it does, and then, if you're smart, you go all in.
I recognize that interconnected pods would probably be safer than cars, but I don't know if the intermediate stage we're in right now is a net gain. Does anybody know of any real-world data about how these new gadgets are actually working out, or is it too soon?
Auto accident deaths are on a downward trend* while miles traveled are increasing. To answer your question, yes they are working. There is no exact number of which nannies are the most effective but some very smart people are working to make our lives safer so perhaps we need to give them time to work?
The market place will sort out the good from the bad. Brands that fail to make things less intrusive will tend to decrease sales. While effective safety will result in increase market. Volvo exists today because of its perception of being a safe car.
My fear is the stupid, self opinionated, people who buy cars based on second grade math ( this one is cheaper) will skew the numbers until the stupid Gene pool can be reduced.
Streetwiseguy said:I would love to see a test of whether a hands free device makes any difference to the actual safety of the driver.
It really doesn't make that much difference if you're holding the phone or not... divided attention is divided attention. Your brain is trying to keep up with the conversation while doing driving tasks. Even having a conversation with the passenger will affect the amount of mental focus you can devote to driving... anyone who's done any track instruction should realize this.
After having no Dynamic Stability Control for a couple of years I really appreciate it this winter when I finally got it fixed. The snow covered road grip level is unpredictable and the DSC responds quicker than I can to get the tail back in line. Easy to turn DSC and TC off for an autocross or track day.
Rodan said:Streetwiseguy said:I would love to see a test of whether a hands free device makes any difference to the actual safety of the driver.
It really doesn't make that much difference if you're holding the phone or not... divided attention is divided attention. Your brain is trying to keep up with the conversation while doing driving tasks. Even having a conversation with the passenger will affect the amount of mental focus you can devote to driving... anyone who's done any track instruction should realize this.
That is certainly what I believe. Curious whether I am correct, though.
Rodan said:Streetwiseguy said:I would love to see a test of whether a hands free device makes any difference to the actual safety of the driver.
It really doesn't make that much difference if you're holding the phone or not... divided attention is divided attention. Your brain is trying to keep up with the conversation while doing driving tasks. Even having a conversation with the passenger will affect the amount of mental focus you can devote to driving... anyone who's done any track instruction should realize this.
I really hate absolutes. Holding a conversation with a passenger ( your wife?). Shhh dear I'm driving on this wide open freeway with no traffic here in the middle of nowhere but you can't distract me with conversation.
Rodan said:Streetwiseguy said:I would love to see a test of whether a hands free device makes any difference to the actual safety of the driver.
It really doesn't make that much difference if you're holding the phone or not... divided attention is divided attention. Your brain is trying to keep up with the conversation while doing driving tasks. Even having a conversation with the passenger will affect the amount of mental focus you can devote to driving... anyone who's done any track instruction should realize this.
While I don't disagree, I think the track analogy is interesting.
When I'm driving in a race sim I drink from my beer on the straights and have a full on conversation with my buddy in the same room while lapping at 10/10ths. On the street I have to tell my passenger to shutup when I'm trying to pick out a street sign.
I turn the nanny stuff off most of the time, ABS I would keep. I can see how it would make other people even more inattentive, so it seems a bit of a two edged sword. Self driving cars have been coming a long time. I have no interest in one. I suspect they could be "hacked" and seem to recall it already happening. Would you be able to take over control of a car and kidnap or kill someone? That would make an excellent movie, I am thinking Gary Oldman as the bad guy
What will your Insurance say when you turn off all the Nanny stuff and have an accident that the Nanny stuff probably would have prevented ?
On page 325 of your policy did it give the Insurance company an OUT ?
In reply to ProDarwin :
I turn off the stereo so I can see better.
ebonyandivory said:In reply to ProDarwin :
I turn off the stereo so I can see better.
Haha, I do that when I'm im backing up.
frenchyd said:I really hate absolutes. Holding a conversation with a passenger ( your wife?). Shhh dear I'm driving on this wide open freeway with no traffic here in the middle of nowhere but you can't distract me with conversation.
Of course it's a balance, but each of us has a finite amount of mental capacity to devote to the tasks we are doing at any given time. Wide open freeway/ highway, no traffic = low mental load = easier to converse. Heavy traffic at high speed, I'll bet your wife is saying "are you listening to me?" because you need a lot more of that capacity for the mental load of driving. 
Same on track... driving 6-7/10ths, explaining lines and braking points to a student passenger... easy. Now try it at 10/10s... not so easy.
Again, it's simply divided attention. I would wager that a lot of us here on this forum have a pretty good ability to balance mental loads while driving... better than the average driving public, anyway. We do it automatically. A lot of folks don't, and those are the ones that don't remember the last 5 miles of driving because they were on the phone. Hands free or not, it affects our ability to process information and react appropriately.
ProDarwin said:While I don't disagree, I think the track analogy is interesting.
When I'm driving in a race sim I drink from my beer on the straights and have a full on conversation with my buddy in the same room while lapping at 10/10ths. On the street I have to tell my passenger to shutup when I'm trying to pick out a street sign.
Perfect examples of what I'm talking about.
On a sim, in your example, you're likely operating on autopilot (muscle memory)... the sensory input is far reduced compared to lapping in real life, and there's no real consequence for crashing. Low mental load = capacity for conversation and drinking.
On your street example, your mental load is high and you need to reduce the non-essential inputs to focus your mental load on finding the right street and making the turn.
To take this back to the original topic... driver aids that can lower the mental workload are not necessarily bad, when they function as intended. But too many people think they can just do something other than driving, because the car will take care of it....
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