Drove an accord hybrid today and a ES300h one of them was really nice

"the steering wheel and seat and everything moves to meet you or let you out of the car"

Funny, that's something that would be seen by me as a negative feature. Do you generally have problems getting out of cars where the steering wheel and seats don't move? IDK, stuff like this is what makes me hate a lot of new cars. Probably 50lbs of electric motors doing all that, and one of them is sure to break at an inopportune moment - probably right after the warranty runs out. And for what? Something that I've never thought that anyone other than my 90-year-old grandmother could possibly need or want. YMMV.

irish44j wrote: "the steering wheel and seat and everything moves to meet you or let you out of the car" Funny, that's something that would be seen by me as a negative feature. Do you generally have problems getting out of cars where the steering wheel and seats don't move? IDK, stuff like this is what makes me hate a lot of new cars. Probably 50lbs of electric motors doing all that, and one of them is sure to break at an inopportune moment - probably right after the warranty runs out. And for what? Something that I've never thought that anyone other than my 90-year-old grandmother could possibly need or want. YMMV.

I agree with you for the most part; but, I thought I would never need/like a telescopic steering wheel. Now it's a prerequisite for a new car. Not that it's a fancy feature or anything but just saying.

Toyota hybrids actual have very good operating cost. The brakes last twice as long, very little ever breaks, the batteries are turning out to last much longer than expected and they cost closer to 3K for a reman unit.

I drove the hybrid Accord for a few days. Real decent car but no soul and the trunk space sucks. A used BMW 3 Series is pretty reasonably priced, gets 25-30 mpg and will make you feel like a baller.

Aspen wrote: Toyota hybrids actual have very good operating cost. The brakes last twice as long, very little ever breaks, the batteries are turning out to last much longer than expected and they cost closer to 3K for a reman unit.

If its using the same pack as the Prius its more like <$2K

Yes, Toyota hybrids have very low operating costs. The batteries are incredibly reliable. It actually shocks me to see "but what about when the batteries fail??!" comments on this forum.

Yeah I am not scared of the battery cost, a 2k replacement every 10 years is like 200 bucks a year which is cheap compared to maintenance/repairs on a lot of other cars.

The easy access thing was just a surprise feature not something I would prioritize. However a telescoping wheel is super nice for being able to not compromise the seating and wheel positions.

Living in socal now the feature it had that I most want is those ventilated/AC seats

I am seeing 08-09 E320 Diesels for as low as 20k which is quite a bit cheaper than I can get either a newer accord hybrid (2014 used for 25k or so) or the avalon hybrid and still gets around 30 combined. No ventilated seat option that I can tell however I love that W211 style.

Next weekend my wife and I will have a couple hours to look at cars we might just hit up Carmax since they will have a variety of things we can sit in/drive vs going to individual dealers

Kia with cooled seats?

Yeah I was shocked to see the Kia Optima at least had them. Might be worth checking out.

I say buy a brand spanking new Avalon. The only difference is material for the most part. Also, you'll help keep my job since I work at the plant that builds the Avalon, Venza, Camry, and soon the ES300.

But with out that bias view on Toyota, buy whatever you will enjoy or be happy with over the next 5 years. Honda and Toyota really are one in the same anymore. I am sure they use a lot of common companies (I know Takata/Denso for sure) so you are getting pretty much the same parts in a different package. And powerplant wise, they are equally reliable. But then again, the Avalon and Camry are 2 of the most American made cars, but don't worry, I just deliver parts to the line, and don't assemble the cars. :D

ProDarwin wrote:

Aspen wrote: Toyota hybrids actual have very good operating cost. The brakes last twice as long, very little ever breaks, the batteries are turning out to last much longer than expected and they cost closer to 3K for a reman unit.

If its using the same pack as the Prius its more like <$2K Yes, Toyota hybrids have very low operating costs. The batteries are incredibly reliable. It actually shocks me to see "but what about when the batteries fail??!" comments on this forum.

Well when you work as a Honda tech and a GM tech and you see hybrid batteries fail you get a certain bias that they will fail. Sorry for not knowing the trends of Toyota's maintenance history for batteries guy.

ProDarwin wrote: Kia with cooled seats?

I had an Ford Expedition rental with cooled seats. Interesting and neat. You don't get that leg/ass sweat like you normally do with leather seats in the south.

Datsun1500 wrote: 400 miles a week in a 2013 Hybrid ES rated at 40 is 10 gallons a week. The non hybrid is rated at 25, so it's 16 per week. 6 gallons at $4.25 is $25 a week, or $1300 a year. If the Hybrid is $5k more, it takes awhile to recoup that money. If you're only shopping 2013 and up since the 2012 did not have the hybrid (and are ok with the old body style) the difference is closer to $15k, which you'd never recover...

I'm not so sure, especially if he looks very long term and always purchases a hybrid for DD if the government takes a while before dictating that all new automobiles have to be hybrids.

Yeah, I mean there are a ton of variables. And lets be honest even at saving 400 dollars a month spending 25kish on a car would take 5yrs before it was "saving" money over simply putting gas in the tank of my already very nice SUV.

A sort of not measurable but nice thing about any car that gets more miles per tank is the not going to the gas station as often. Right now I feel like I am always there while in my TDI Jetta it was like every 2-2.5 weeks.

So as the long term outright cost is more than likely less the most important aspect of the discussion it actually comes down to how it effects the now. (Not that I am a oh I can afford a payment I can afford it guy)

It still may be that the non hybrid slightly older Lexus buy in price would be so significantly lower that its payment difference would make up for lack of gas mileage but then we could get into discussions of which one will depreciate faster, might be more expensive or cheaper to insure etc etc.

I do appreciate the information because it did make me start looking at more of the non hybrids to see what they were getting even in the mid 20s if the price is right

I didnt know the 3yrs was the magic spot