Dual Use Cars, Harness/seatbelt and Brake options

I can't seem to find a thread discussing multi point harnesses/belts for a dual use car, but would imagine there are many people in my situation. I have a new to me, 2019 Mustang that is a street car. I want to do some occasional track days and would like to have a better belt than the stock 3 point. The car has Recaro seats with the cutouts for the shoulder straps but no provisions for an anti submarine strap. I have found a couple of Corbeau or Schroth shoulder strap styles but both seem to require taking at least some of the car apart or adding a harness bar to use them. Is there an option to add shoulder straps/lap belts using existing factory mounting points/ hardware? I'm trying to avoid removal of interior panels, carpet, etc. Removing the back seat to make some attachments would be a reasonable option.

The car has 6 piston Brembo brakes. I'm planning on flushing the brake fluid with high temp race fluid and trying the stock pads (20k miles) for my first outing (probably at Lime Rock, light-ish brake loading). Does anyone track a 6th Gen Mustang on stock pads? I don't plan on pushing this car too hard (6/7- 10ths??) as I just want to have fun with it, no competition, so I can leave several seconds on the table each lap. Are the stock pads capable able of hauling down all that weight repetitively? Realistically, I will likely end up getting a set of track pads/rotors as I am picking up a second set of wheels with dedicated track tires. 

With the little amount information I have found, it sounds like the car is fairly capable of running 20-30 minute track sessions without much upgrading. Anyone with real world experiences?

What tricks does the Hive have?

Safety gear is a system, and street cars and race cars have fairly different systems aimed at doing different things in an incident.

So, to stay safe you need to either run the stock setup, or install a race seat, roll bar, and harness. For a dual-duty car I would leave the stock safety gear, and buy a Simpson Hybrid S head and neck restraint to keep your head attached to your body. It works with three-point belts.

Or, you can do what we do for our BMW project and swap seats/belts every time you go to the track. Anything else is a pretty drastic compromise, and a good way to fail tech depending on which organizations you're running with. 

As far as brakes go: There's no free lunch, and I've yet to find a set of dual-duty pads I was truly happy with. I tried Pagid's STREET+ on our GTI project, and they were awesome... but wore out extremely quickly. Your best bet is to swap between street and track pads, or just run the track pads 24/7 and deal with the noise, dust, and rotor wear. 

Get a set of Schroth quickfit pro. They bolt in and out easy, don't need a sub strap, and work with a hans. They are also 100% road legal and accepted by every major national hpde club.

I had the Brembo's on my Focus RS, not sure if they are exactly the same, but the stock pads took the heat really well, they just wore extremely fast. Similar situation with my Audi RS3 on the stock pads. Though, if  you want a street pad to switch out, it makes sense to just keep your stock pad for the street and switch to a track pad.

I think you should be able to install the Schroth Quickfit. You'll find some debate on the safety of 4pt harness though. This one does have ASM built in. I can't speak to safety or the install procedure though. I planned to put this in my Focus RS before I sold it. It doesn't work with my RS3 because it has an integrated headrest with no slots. I do have a 4pt harness in my Miata though.

Locking the seatbelt and move the seat forward is a good option with all the stock equipment, but a harness does help hold you in place much better.

I suppose my question is whether you want the better belting for safety or just to be more stable in the seat. If the former, I agree with the "safety is a system" concept, do it right and get a rollbar and proper harness. If the latter, I don't feel too bad about installing a fixed back seat with otherwise stock modern safety systems, and I've generally found that a properly fitting seat does as much or more to hold you still than a harness.

imgon said:

I can't seem to find a thread discussing multi point harnesses/belts for a dual use car, but would imagine there are many people in my situation. I have a new to me, 2019 Mustang that is a street car. I want to do some occasional track days and would like to have a better belt than the stock 3 point. The car has Recaro seats with the cutouts for the shoulder straps but no provisions for an anti submarine strap. I have found a couple of Corbeau or Schroth shoulder strap styles but both seem to require taking at least some of the car apart or adding a harness bar to use them. Is there an option to add shoulder straps/lap belts using existing factory mounting points/ hardware? I'm trying to avoid removal of interior panels, carpet, etc. Removing the back seat to make some attachments would be a reasonable option.

The car has 6 piston Brembo brakes. I'm planning on flushing the brake fluid with high temp race fluid and trying the stock pads (20k miles) for my first outing (probably at Lime Rock, light-ish brake loading). Does anyone track a 6th Gen Mustang on stock pads? I don't plan on pushing this car too hard (6/7- 10ths??) as I just want to have fun with it, no competition, so I can leave several seconds on the table each lap. Are the stock pads capable able of hauling down all that weight repetitively? Realistically, I will likely end up getting a set of track pads/rotors as I am picking up a second set of wheels with dedicated track tires. 

With the little amount information I have found, it sounds like the car is fairly capable of running 20-30 minute track sessions without much upgrading. Anyone with real world experiences?

What tricks does the Hive have?

I have a decent bit of instructing experience in those cars, and I haven't had a problem with the stock equipment for a novice as far as brakes go, BUT, that's a 2019.. that means it's 6 years old and new to you.. Are you certain you're actually running the stock pads and not some autozone replacement?

I'd probably throw on a set of HAWK HPS 5.0 or EBC BlueStuff pads when you flush the front.   No, they're not "REAL" track pads, but they're streetable and decent on the track and will meet your goals.  Everyone else has covered the reality of what you'll end up doing at some point in the future :)

Also, if you're looking to go to LRP as your first event, plug for MassTuning Trackfest, the best bang for the track buck in the northeast.   Let me know, I'll instruct you over there :)

Thanks for all the replies. For background, I have been doing Time Trials for about 20 years in a 2nd Gen RX7. It was a dedicated track car. I had a lot of fun with it and consider myself a decent driver, sold the car last spring. I pushed the RX7 to my mental limits and most of the car's limits. The Mustang was purchased to be a street car that was capable of doing some track days. I will not be pushing this car very hard. It isn't my "baby" but it is too nice to mess with, excellent condition, Bullitt edition, w/20k miles. I have three tracks I want to run at, maybe once per year and to enjoy what the car and I are capable of. The Mustang has almost three times the horsepower over the RX7 so I will be taking it slow to start. I have one AX day under my belt with the Mustang and I felt fairly planted in the seat with the factory belt. I am used to being strapped in and being one with the car. On some of the AX corners, I felt like I was hanging onto the car with my knees and elbows. I don't think it will be as noticeable on the track as the corner transitions will be a little less "violent". I think the Schroth will be my best option for belts and I'll just go ahead and get some track pads because in the grand scheme they are a cheap way to ensure I can slow down comfortably. I have a few months to get ready, no sense taking short cuts.

Wonko; I usually run with COM and EMRA. I'll have to check the MT schedule and see what they have. Maybe see you there.

Thanks again everyone.

+1 for what Tom said on the seats and belts. There are some safety downsides to running a 4pt+ harness without a roll bar/cage and without a HANS. The stock 3pt belt with a hybrid HANS would be a good way to improve safety if you don't want to add a roll bar/cage. If you just want to be held into the car more tightly, add a seatbelt clip to the stock 3pt belt (Edit: make sure any explosive pretensioner is on the reel and not the lap-side anchor or seat before you try that though).

For pads, it's really hard to find the butterzone for a dual-use pad, but for a Mustang, something like EBC Yellowstuffs or G-Loc R8s might make a good dual-duty pad.

Huh.  Never heard of the Schroth Quickfit system before--it's possible that a 4-point with pyrotechnics is actually safe, but many tracks have a blanket "no 4 point harnesses" rule, and I doubt, "But this system is safe because it has explosives!" is going to convince them to look the other way.

For driving with OEM 3-points on the track, I get the inertial reel to lock with the shoulder strap under my arm, then force my arm back underneath.  With the inertial reel pre-locked, the belt is tight and holds me in the seat.  May not work with fancy, newer 3-points with different locking mechanisms.

imgon said:

Thanks for all the replies. For background, I have been doing Time Trials for about 20 years in a 2nd Gen RX7. It was a dedicated track car. I had a lot of fun with it and consider myself a decent driver, sold the car last spring. I pushed the RX7 to my mental limits and most of the car's limits. The Mustang was purchased to be a street car that was capable of doing some track days. I will not be pushing this car very hard. It isn't my "baby" but it is too nice to mess with, excellent condition, Bullitt edition, w/20k miles. I have three tracks I want to run at, maybe once per year and to enjoy what the car and I are capable of. The Mustang has almost three times the horsepower over the RX7 so I will be taking it slow to start. I have one AX day under my belt with the Mustang and I felt fairly planted in the seat with the factory belt. I am used to being strapped in and being one with the car. On some of the AX corners, I felt like I was hanging onto the car with my knees and elbows. I don't think it will be as noticeable on the track as the corner transitions will be a little less "violent". I think the Schroth will be my best option for belts and I'll just go ahead and get some track pads because in the grand scheme they are a cheap way to ensure I can slow down comfortably. I have a few months to get ready, no sense taking short cuts.

Wonko; I usually run with COM and EMRA. I'll have to check the MT schedule and see what they have. Maybe see you there.

Thanks again everyone.

Ah, well, yeah, the background info changes the calculus quite a bit..

I've had a decent bit of seat time in FCs as well.. You'll be able to go A LOT faster in the Mustang, and they're honestly a bit deceptive in how well the suspension works and how fast you can go, and remember that energy goes up square with the speed, not linear :)    I think you'll probably be wearing out those street pads quite quickly, and you should probably budget for decent pads if not for your first day, then immediately afterwards.

Sorry, I was expecting you were a novice, not a seasoned COM driver :)

+2 on Tom's comments.

In both the Triple Thread ND and One Lap McLaren, I run stock safety (3-pt plus factory airbags) along with an FIA  Hybrid-S.

In both CRX's I run race seats, roll bar/cage and 5-pt harnesses.

Also echo his brake comments.  The 720 and ND both keep their race pads for street use (sqeeeeeek!!), unless a long trip where the stock pads (or equivalent) get swapped in.  We ran race pads the whole time for the One Lap CRX.

For my Cadillac ATSV that is a semi-daily driver that sees 10+ track days a year, I run G-Loc GS1 pads on the street and slap R16/R12s for the circuit.  The Brembo calipers take 30 minutes to change pads on all four corners.  I'm unfamiliar with OEM Mustang pads, but OEM Ferodo/Brembo HP1000s that come on the ATS-V (and C7 Grand Sport/Z06) work well for casual, intermediate-pace track use on street or "lapping tires" like the ECS02, PS4S, SC3, RS4, ECF, AD09 and maybe V730 on the sticky end of things.

I think one could run G-Loc R8s as a dual-use pad, assuming dust doesn't bother you...not sure if they squeal but they can't be any louder than Hawks which wake the dead.

Also another +whatever for the Simpson Hybrid S...after spinning out of T10B at Gingerman at 100mph because I was an idiot, I won't track at speed without it now.

flyin_viata said:

I think one could run G-Loc R8s as a dual-use pad, assuming dust doesn't bother you...not sure if they squeal but they can't be any louder than Hawks which wake the dead.

Oh they do, every time you touch the brakes. It's not that bad though. I find EBC Yellows to be similar but quieter, they only squeal when cold.

Be careful with the Schroth quick fits, some track don't allow 4 point harnesses, period.  High Plains near me is one for instance...

I tried EBC yellows on the X1, and found that I could get them to fade in ~2laps.  Switched to G-Loc R16 and R12 (front/rear) for OneLap and was happy with them.  G-Loc doesn't recommend you street use them, and yes they dust like the dickens.  I can, however, get them to "not squeak" ~90% of the time (sleepywife notsomuch)... but that means erring on the side of using more brake pressure later, than most people are comfortable with on the street.  Ideally you'd swap them for their street compound when not on-track.  I don't recommend you skimp on brakes, even if you're going to take it easy.

also went with a HybridS, which is still taking some getting used to (if you've got a sim setup, probably a good idea to log some time with the Hybrid/Helmet before you go on-track to get used to the feel if you haven't worn a HANS before).  if that's that right "PPE-to-Risk" profile, is up to you.

If it were me I'd be looking at the Schroth Quickfit PRO (the Pro is the version that is compatible with a HANS so worth the extra money) since it is available for your car. These harnesses are tested and approved for the specific chassis and seats to make sure it works as a proper system. This is not some universal setup that is being adapted to the car like a roll bar/harness bar, seats and a 5 or 6 point harness would be.

It's sad that organizers are so quick to make blanket statements about a 4-point harness not being allowed when there are really good products available that have been properly tested for the actual application and improve safety. I understand not allowing universal 4-points but those are not the same as one of these Quickfit systems from Schroth.

Berck said:

Huh.  Never heard of the Schroth Quickfit system before--it's possible that a 4-point with pyrotechnics is actually safe, but many tracks have a blanket "no 4 point harnesses" rule, and I doubt, "But this system is safe because it has explosives!" is going to convince them to look the other way.

For driving with OEM 3-points on the track, I get the inertial reel to lock with the shoulder strap under my arm, then force my arm back underneath.  With the inertial reel pre-locked, the belt is tight and holds me in the seat.  May not work with fancy, newer 3-points with different locking mechanisms.

The thing with the quickfits is that the inner belt stiches are designed to fail in an accident, causing your body to rotate and act like a 3pt in a crash, not pyro. NASA, and PCA explicitly allow then. BMWCCA is a little less organized, but allows them. The only groups I've seen be really resistant are around NJ because NJ has some odd laws pertaining to harnesses and HDPE. Easier to do a blanket ban than deal with the details.

Here's the TNiA section for a NJ event as an example-

"Seatbelts: If using aftermarket harnesses, they must be current (SFI - 2 years or less, FIA - 5 years or less). No four-point harnesses are allowed. For cars which the NJ State Police classify as racecars, all "Chapter 62" requirements will be enforced. A "racecar" is open to State Police interpretation, so the more your car looks like a racecar and the less like a street car, the better the chances are you will be required to have the required racing harnesses and seats must be manufactured and designed to have 5-point harnesses. (E.g. a designed/manufactured set of holes for sub and shoulder straps.)

Seatbelts, part 2:Track Night in America and NJ Law allows the use of DOT-approved 4-point harnesses, but NJMP strongly recommends against their use. "

Quickfits meet the "DOT approved" bit.

Thanks again for all the input. The goal for this car is to be able to have fun with it and not turn it into another race car. Been there, done that, got the $5 trophy and an empty bank account. At this point I am leaning towards the Schroth QuickfitPro. It is perhaps not the "best" option but seems better that just the 3 point and it was engineered for this particular use. It installs without any mods to the car and I can still use my HANS. If I start going more often than a few times per year then I'll spring for a race seat, bar and proper harnesses.

For the brakes, I'm a little concerned about overshooting corners, lots more HP and a bit more weight than I am used to. My RX7 cornered telepathically and had fantastic brakes. The internet says Mustangs can't turn at all.  I haven't driven it enough yet to prove the internet wrong, the brakes do seem to be effective. I'll swap over to race pads for track days. First because slowing down is rather important. Slowing down predictably, every time, is way more important, I don't think stock pads will provide me that level of confidence. Secondly, the street wheels suck to keep clean as it is so I will stay with stock pads for at home. 

Now I just have to wait for winter to be over...

In reply to imgon :

A sound approach that I think you'll be happy with :)

Baby seat clip to lock lap belt (similar to cg lock). Some cars you can lock the shoulder belt but I've had no luck on any of my cars.

lnlds said:

Baby seat clip to lock lap belt (similar to cg lock). Some cars you can lock the shoulder belt but I've had no luck on any of my cars.

Yeah, I do the "jerk and click" with my 3-pts.  Keeps them taut against the Hybrid S shoulder strap plate.

Even easier if you have power seats.