Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
Because of the dangers of Methanol ( as compared to ethanol ) I won't touch that stuff. Besides it's "octane " is 116 as compared to ethanol's 114. That slight difference is just not worth the added risk.
Octane is just the anti-knock ability, there is also the cooling effect and BTU output at target AFR. Methanol wins for both of those. I understand the relative ease of using E85 (if pump E85 is available, we used to have it but it's no longer available and need to get it through race suppliers).
That's why I put Octane in quotes. Plus I've been working with some racers who are doing all sorts of interesting things with 98% ethanol. ( you need 2% of something to denature it so you you don't get hit with the booze tax )
Most interesting to me was a chemical ( escapes me at the moment) that they had been using in F1 to enhance fuel mileage. Apparently in the right combination it would get near gasoline fuel mileage while still affording the cooling benefits of alcohol.
Most interesting was trace amounts of Nitro from RC engine fuel.
These were drag racers so I don't know the longer term consequences of their suggestions but they were pretty scientific about their approach. With air temps, air density, coolant temps, etc. making no changes other than chemical composition.
We aren't talking about massively faster but 2% of 15% nitro mix was a consistent .02 faster 1/4 mile time
it's on U tube under fuel mixture changes.
Been doing the nitro blending for a bit, you can get a feel for it going from VP M1 to VP M5 which has similar effects as 5% nitro in neat methanol. Things don't get interesting until 15% or more, in both speed and surprises.
I wouldn't fool with anything in E98 there is no magic bullet to get "gas" fuel mileage out of it at a stoichometric ratio, or even near.
In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :
They were playing with RC fuel ( methanol based? ) with up to 15% nitro and adding it to 98% ethanol.
The object is to get a fuel acceptable to road racing. (E85 ). And achieve as much power as mildly modified cars have. Power in a can so to speak.
I like their approach using a common Toyota engine in a MGB and striving for consistency rather than flashy numbers.
Frankly I don't know if they are optimizing timing and fuel mixture or if the car is capable of self learning.
Since the drag strip they run at is over in Wisconsin about an hour and a half away I'm tempted to go tomorrow night and watch and talk to them.
Tuluene ( sp) is the chemical they are working with to increase fuel mileage. As I understand it, it's a byproduct of coal Tar. When I looked it up it scared the heck out of me. There are EPA warnings about it but went on to say that it's used in fingernail polish among other beauty products. and there are limits to exposure in beauty salons?
I do remember decades ago they were using something like that to get better fuel mileage in Formula 1 before they standardized the fuel supplied.
Yes RC fuel with nitro will be methanol based, and may also have oil.
I don't see this doing anything worthwhile mixed into E98. I see gains with 5% nitro in methanol but I have to be looking for them (dyno or a consistent track day). Adding a 15% nitro blend methanol into gallons of E98 is in the hundredths/thousanths of a second type gain.
Its all a slippery slope.. if you run E50 may as well run E85, if you run E85 may as well run E98, if you run E98 may as well run methanol, if you run methanol you may as well run some nitro, if some nitro is good throw the whole can in 
My new setup for 50% nitro and if it survives it should be interesting.
If you run 98 percent ethanol, do whole corn kernels come out the exhaust?
californiamilleghia said:
does anything happen when E85 gets on your hands or paint job etc
there is not much E85 around here.....
If you spill beer or wine on your hands with a little gasoline in it it's the same effect.
Jerry From LA said:
If you run 98 percent ethanol, do whole corn kernels come out the exhaust?
If your engine starts to overheat, you get popcorn.
I'm curious as to why Frenchy is walking around with a glass of wine with gasoline in it.
californiamilleghia said:
does anything happen when E85 gets on your hands or paint job etc
there is not much E85 around here.....
It evaporates too fast to hurt paint.
If you get a lot on your skin, you will get a little buzzed like you had a shot or two of vodka, just like working with any other denatured alcohol. If you get E85 fed used oil on your skin, like say stripping down a dead engine without gloves, you will get the mother of all hangovers. Something about aldehydes, combustion byproducts, I dunno, I just regretted going gloveless because the oil was so slippery.
In reply to Colin Wood :
Favorite comment on YouTube - "I know this is a serious incident, but am I the only one who heard "Help me Oprah Wynfrey! Help me Tom Cruise"? :-)"
kb58
UltraDork
10/6/22 3:52 p.m.
frenchyd said:
In reply to chaparral :
First reason not to use methanol is it will kill you. On your skin it's evaporating really fast so it will feel cool. But it's being absorbed too and that's tough on your organs. Cancer and other bad words tough.
breathing methanol will also do bad things to your lungs.
Second ethanol can be drunk ( pun intended) whiskey whine beer all have ethanol in them.
Methanol on the other hand, first you go blind and then you die if you drink it. Both methanol and ethanol are alcohol one is safe, one is death.
Methanol fires are invisible. The first time you notice it may be when your burning skin adds a little smoke to the fire. E85 the flame is visible.
All the above. I briefly used it 50/50 with distilled water as part of water/meth injection. Whenever it was active I could smell the methanol, and based on all my readings, that was enough to never use it again. For those looking for a lot of horsepower, know that you're messing with some seriously unhealthy stuff.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Yes RC fuel with nitro will be methanol based, and may also have oil.
I don't see this doing anything worthwhile mixed into E98. I see gains with 5% nitro in methanol but I have to be looking for them (dyno or a consistent track day). Adding a 15% nitro blend methanol into gallons of E98 is in the hundredths/thousanths of a second type gain.
Its all a slippery slope.. if you run E50 may as well run E85, if you run E85 may as well run E98, if you run E98 may as well run methanol, if you run methanol you may as well run some nitro, if some nitro is good throw the whole can in
My new setup for 50% nitro and if it survives it should be interesting.
I'm seriously wondering how accurate drag racing is as a measure of power?
In other words how much human error will a skilled driver introduce in a 1/4 mile drag race?
assume a 10 second car.
In 10 passes with the same driver what would the variation be?
How about a typical Autocrosser?
I was at a test and tune night and watched some very serious young men try various fuel mixtures using a lot of meters , gauges, and instruments.
Were they fooling themselves or can serious information be gathered?
In reply to frenchyd :
I think MPH at the end of a 1/4 mile is a decent measure of power, better than ET as it depends less on the driver.
In reply to obsolete :
Are you saying that in 10 passes with a 10 second car. Under identical conditions they would all be 135 mph? ( or whatever?)
That if you changed the fuel for the 11 th pass you'd see the change in speed?
FWIW, still one of my favorite headlines.
frenchyd said:
In reply to obsolete :
Are you saying that in 10 passes with a 10 second car. Under identical conditions they would all be 135 mph? ( or whatever?)
That if you changed the fuel for the 11 th pass you'd see the change in speed?
They would be pretty darn close. Close enough to fall under the category of "statistical noise."
It is amazing how much you can screw up a launch and still run within margin of error for MPH.
When I tune at the track I do really boring walks off the line because it won't matter, I am not looking at ET.
z31maniac said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to obsolete :
Are you saying that in 10 passes with a 10 second car. Under identical conditions they would all be 135 mph? ( or whatever?)
That if you changed the fuel for the 11 th pass you'd see the change in speed?
They would be pretty darn close. Close enough to fall under the category of "statistical noise."
That's great. 3 pulls at a local chassis Dyno is $175.
Entry at a test and tune was $35. I should be able to go 4 times per hour. Based on what I saw the last time I was there.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
It is amazing how much you can screw up a launch and still run within margin of error for MPH.
When I tune at the track I do really boring walks off the line because it won't matter, I am not looking at ET.
When I did my own testing up the steep hill behind my house I measured time as a method. ( MGTD with 54 horsepower) so I never got up to the speed limit.
I should have focused on the speedometer.
It's nice to know I'll get a slip showing my speed. And that way I can keep track of changes easily.
If you are looking for power changes you look at incrementals like the back 1/8th mile or 330 to 660 depending on how the car is geared. We can see a plug go bad at half track in just the timeslip.
