EFS Combust

Gee, maybe we need 15% ethanol after all.

I'm still trying to understand how a change in fuel affects the trip/mpg meter.

I finally joined this forum just to post on this topic.

Does no one tune with a freaking wideband???? That should tell you immediately what's going on. Even if this product is effective, I don't appreciate nonsense marketing claims like "Burns 99% of the hydrocarbons" blah blah blah. Not if I run it rich enough it won't

Or does the wideband read 14.7 no matter how you tune the car

The only way this works as they claim is if it is an octane booster that simply boosts octane higher than 93 pump gas. Ok, fine, if your ECU is complex enough to figure it out and remap for more advance you will have more power. If you have a carb, MS, or most OBD1 ECUs, you get jack sh!t.Running more advance gives you more power, not the fuel.

Anybody run this stuff and see what numbers their wideband tells them?

haven't put the CRX on the dyno yet … but both it and the Integra "seem" to have improved in the MPG area … still this isn't just butt dyno not actual graphs

but the F150 doesn't seem affected ( CRX is chipped OBD0, and the other two are OEM OBD 2)

Warmer weather and summer gas do a lot to improve mileage. So saying that an additive "seems" to improve mpg doesn't prove much.

like I said …. butt dyno … later this summer I'll have it back on the chassis dyno … maybe we'll see something then

plus I'll have on a track where I have a lot of laps this coming weekend … we'll see what the lap times show

So far all the evidence points to this stuff simply being an effective octane booster. Which would allow some modern ECUs in some motors to make more power because they detect that it is possible to run more advance, or can "learn" to tune themselves in other ways to take the best advantage of fuel.

Those of us that run carburetors or tune simple map-based EFI systems might make a tiny fraction more power, but not anything significant without tuning for it. This vendor needs to be honest about what they are selling so that it's possible to make the most out of their product. Do we need to recalibrate our widebands? Will it change how rich or lean we should tune? Come on, if this is based on science, then give us the dang science!!!

Why does it feel like a canoe regatta around here?

cardinaljimenez wrote: The only way this works as they claim is if it is an octane booster that simply boosts octane higher than 93 pump gas.

There are a number of other ways that this could work. For instance:

• Contains fuel with a greater energy content than normal pump gas blends (molecules with a greater lower heating value).

• Has very volatile components with a high latent heat of vaporization that cool the charge, thus increasing charge density and power.

• Contains elements that burn very quickly, or cause gas to burn more quickly when ignited, thus delivering power in the cylinder at a more optimal time (all energy released closer to TDC).

The trick is getting something in this bottle that is potent enough to actually have an effect on an entire tank of gas, not degrade the octane rating too far (or at all) and not mess up the A/F ratio to the point where the engine doesn't run right.

I suspect that this NOT based on boosting the octane and allowing a modern ecu to correct because they specifically say that some cars can experience mild detonation under some conditions. If this were an octane booster, that should never happen just from adding it to your tank.

cardinaljimenez wrote: Come on, if this is based on science, then give us the dang science!!!

I highly agree with this, but I doubt that there's any IP involved, so you can't blame them for wanting to protect their trade secrets.

cardinaljimenez wrote: So far all the evidence points to this stuff simply being an effective octane booster. Which would allow some modern ECUs in some motors to make more power because they detect that it is possible to run more advance, or can "learn" to tune themselves in other ways to take the best advantage of fuel. Those of us that run carburetors or tune simple map-based EFI systems might make a tiny fraction more power, but not anything significant without tuning for it. This vendor needs to be honest about what they are selling so that it's possible to make the most out of their product. Do we need to recalibrate our widebands? Will it change how rich or lean we should tune? Come on, if this is based on science, then give us the dang science!!!

well … yes and no … the car I'm using it in is a '91 CRX … not much "help" from the ECU (OBD 0) … chipped … and 95% of the dyno work was to ensure that the A/F ratios were optimized … when I next go see him, we'll see if the stuff makes any measurable difference

In reply to cardinaljimenez:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Vendors being honest!?!? That only happens if you put a gun to their heads...

JohnyHachi6 wrote:

cardinaljimenez wrote: The only way this works as they claim is if it is an octane booster that simply boosts octane higher than 93 pump gas.

: - Contains elements that burn very quickly, or cause gas to burn more quickly when ignited, thus delivering power in the cylinder at a more optimal time (all energy released closer to TDC).

That's called "detonation", and can result in decreased power/efficiency or chucking the rods thru the side of the block (google "F150 Lightning detonation" for examples).

The trick is getting something in this bottle that is potent enough to actually have an effect on an entire tank of gas, not degrade the octane rating too far (or at all) and not mess up the A/F ratio to the point where the engine doesn't run right. I suspect that this NOT based on boosting the octane and allowing a modern ecu to correct because they specifically say that some cars can experience mild detonation under some conditions. If this were an octane booster, that should never happen just from adding it to your tank.

The alcohols alone will boost octane somewhat, and the volume isn't enough to cause an overly-lean condition; the mystery chemical (10%) is the real question, and what we NEED to know before calling this a "miracle".

Any updates from anyone?

In reply to comatb:

I still haven't seen a full analysis to determine what the other 10% of the ingredients are besides the ethanol and benzyl alcohol. Some of it is probably fragrance, maybe some water, and possibly something that changes the response of the oxygen sensor.

If the product actually has any real effect on fuel consumption, it's by means of changing the response of the oxygen sensor so your engine runs more lean.

even for cars that don't have oxygen sensors ?

I don't see how this product could have any noticeable affect on a vehicle without closed-loop EFI. There isn't enough change in the energy density of the fuel by adding a bit of this to a tank of gas.

Without the combustion byproducts resulting in a change in tune, the biggest difference you're going to see is the same difference you see going from "summer blend" to "winter blend" gasoline, or changing a few % of ethanol content.

BTW I found out at least some of what the "proprietary" 10% probably is. It's an ethanol/gasoline cosolvent. This is one of the product claims: "Stabilizes your fuel, protecting you from Ethanol fuel phase separation for up to two years." (Unless perhaps that's what the benzyl alcohol is for?)

iceracer wrote: Gee, maybe we need 15% ethanol after all. I'm still trying to understand how a change in fuel affects the trip/mpg meter.

their claim is that most engines don't do a complete burn … i.e. there is gas that exits through the exhaust valves as un-burnt vapor …

if that is actually what happens, then there should be more power … whether or not that translates into more mpg … shrug….

In reply to JohnyHachi6: Actually, there is IP - a recently issued US Patent that discloses the entire composition of EFS Combust: http://www.google.com/patents/US8696769

So their formulation is not a trade secret. Unfortunately the patent doesn't provide a scientifically rigorous explanation how it works. But I actually had an opportunity to speak with a prominent engine scientist about a related topic and it seems to me that the free-radical forming components, such as the ethers or ketones in EFS Combust (check out the patent - it's in there), may help to promote a better burn during the combustion cycle. I may be wrong, but based upon my conversation with the engine scientist it is my understanding that there is a small (~5-10%) pre-TDC combustion event that occurs in, and robs power from, most spark-ignition engines. Perhaps EFS Combust minimizes this pre-TDC event so that there is effectively more fuel available on the power stroke? In other words it makes sure all the fuel is combusted after the timed spark. The effect could very well be to increase effective load. So EFS Combust could actually work quite differently than a simple octane booster.

(I just convinced myself to buy a bottle to try.)

This is my first post.

Looking at the patent, here's one composition that they have patent rights to: 3. A fuel additive comprising the following; A first component which is a mixture comprising all of the following; 45% Acetophenone, 12.5% diethyl ether, 10% dibutyl ether, 11% 2-ethylhexanol, 9.5% 2-ethylhexanoic acid; a second component comprising a mixture by total volume 52%-57% Ethanol and 34%-38.00% Benzyl Alcohol; and said first component and said second component mixed to comprise said fuel additive where 6-9% of a total volume of said fuel additive by volume is comprised of said first component.

If the additive adds oxygen to the fuel somehow (which alcohols do), you have your power answer.

Rally cars in north america run street legal, unleaded, but highly oxygenated race fuels (~9%). Since the restrictor limits max airflow, we get more oxygen in other ways. I'd guess that is how this works.

Jeffman wrote: In reply to JohnyHachi6: Actually, there is IP - a recently issued US Patent that discloses the entire composition of EFS Combust: http://www.google.com/patents/US8696769 So their formulation is not a trade secret. Unfortunately the patent doesn't provide a scientifically rigorous explanation how it works. But I actually had an opportunity to speak with a prominent engine scientist about a related topic and it seems to me that the free-radical forming components, such as the ethers or ketones in EFS Combust (check out the patent - it's in there), may help to promote a better burn during the combustion cycle. I may be wrong, but based upon my conversation with the engine scientist it is my understanding that there is a small (~5-10%) pre-TDC combustion event that occurs in, and robs power from, most spark-ignition engines. Perhaps EFS Combust minimizes this pre-TDC event so that there is effectively more fuel available on the power stroke? In other words it makes sure all the fuel is combusted after the timed spark. The effect could very well be to increase effective load. So EFS Combust could actually work quite differently than a simple octane booster. (I just convinced myself to buy a bottle to try.) This is my first post.

Pre-TDC combustion event.

Isn't that called advanced timing ? which all engines have.

It's not "pre-TDC" - that was my mistake. I meant to say there is a small combustion event that precedes the main one.

Jeffman wrote: It's not "pre-TDC" - that was my mistake. I meant to say there is a small combustion event that precedes the main one.

That's called pre-ignition and happens when you run too low of an octane in your high-compression engine..

In reply to rharris19:

The article with a dyno sheet is posted here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/lightning-bottle/

We just tested EFS Combust again, and I did some digging into the formulation. Let's just say now would be a good time to renew your subscription to Grassroots Motorsports.

I used up my entire bottle … didn't get the car back on the dyno … but my butt dyno says there was possibly some improvement … but really unable to prove