Evaluating Options for a New Tow Vehicle

It's been almost two full years of driving the Mercedes post-rebuild and I think I'm ready to move it on down the line and replace it with something new.  So far, my candidates are:

- Nissan Armada / Infiniti QX80

- Ford Expedition

- Lexus GX

- Toyota Sequoia

- Some sort of crew cab pickup truck

- A newer than mine GL/GLS

I'm with George on this one and don't want to pay a lot for this muffler, so I was hoping to be in mid 20s.  I really don't want a project and I expect to hang on to it for a while, so something in the under 100k range is preferred.  2015 or newer is probably a good idea because I'd be financing at least part of it.  I realize I'm asking for the world there, but if it's just not possible, then I'd pay more rather than get less.  The rallycross car+trailer is probably about 4500-5000 lbs, but I like the option to put something heavier on the trailer to be able to drag home projects - the trailer is probably 1800-2000 pounds, so assume I need at least another 3500 on top of that.  Today, we have a motorhome but that is going up on the chopping block in the next couple weeks and I haven't decided if I want to replace it with another motorhome, a travel trailer, or not at all.  If I replace it with a travel trailer, it would probably be a bumper pull and weigh in around 7000-8000 lbs GVWR.  All that to say, that I think a 7000 lb towing capacity is probably my bare minimum.

No RWD options, I want AWD/4WD.  Rain-sensing wipers are flipping amazing, so I want those.  Adaptive cruise control is important.  Heated seats are mandatory, ventilated seats would be preferred, and a heated second-row would be really nice to have.  I want Android Auto, but I'm willing to add that on via a new head unit as long as I get to keep steering wheel controls and everything else.

I've got three kids and two medium-size dogs - one is about 70ish lbs and the other is around 120.  The kids are 17, 16, and almost 15, so they're people-sized.  There's also a cat running around.  When we go camping, it's usually the kids + animals.  That said, though, the middle kid is going to be going to college out of town in August, and the eldest tends to work weekends, so when we get back into camping, I'm not sure how much we're going to be traveling all together anymore.  If it's all five of us and the animals, then we need three rows or the dogs are going to have to ride in the camper by themselves.  Not sure how I feel about that. 

Most of the driving, of course, is around-town stuff which can be pretty painful at the pump.  That's why I like the Mercedes - I can get 18mpg towing on the highway and 19mpg mixed around town.  It sounds like the 3.5EB in the Ford is reliable and not hateful when it comes time to fill it up, even on premium which I assume it requires. 

The Toyota and Lexus offerings seem to be (a) hard to find with lower miles, (b) expensive for what they are, and (c) a little bit lower-rated for towing.  They do, however, seem to be absolute cockroaches when it comes to reliability.  I don't particularly care for how they look, but I do like the way a Lexus rides.

I had an Armada as a rental a while back.  I think it was a 2019 model.  Loved basically everything about it.  I have never been inside a QX80, but I cannot fathom what they could have done to make it better, other than adding an analog clock so you knew you were in a luxury vehicle.  Towing capacity appears to be 8500 lbs, which would restrict me a little bit on camper floorplans, but there's plenty in that size that would work.  I have heard that they are also very anvil-like.

Ford Expedition (and, I should add, Lincoln Navigator), seem like they can be equipped to handle 9,200lbs.  That would really open up my options for campers.  Without the right equipment, we're only looking at 6600 lbs which isn't really enough.  Is the 3.5 EB as good as I think it is, or are they fraught with peril?  Every truck I've ever owned has been a Ford and the only complaint I've ever really had is that the cruise control doesn't have a "cancel" option. 

A crew cab truck would definitely be the towing champion of the world.  But five people in a crew cab isn't a very comfortable option for long trips.  The long trip with 5 people is turning into more and more of an edge case, though.  I have no preference on manufacturer there, but I've always hated the interior of Chevys/GMCs.  I could learn to live with it, though.  Moving to a truck, though, then brings the question of why not a 250 or 350 and then look at a fifth wheel camper.

You'd think that I wouldn't even consider another Merc, but here's the thing....  I love the way it rides down the road.  They're so quiet, they're comfortable, they look good, and, frankly, there is a bit of a cachet of pulling up in a Merc.  Granted, that doesn't always work in my favor - people think I've got money because I've got a 12 year old Mercedes that I had to rebuild - but it's still kinda nice.  When I get into my wife's Mazda 5 the first five minutes I spend trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with the car before I remember that normal cars are just a lot louder than mine.  If I did that, it sure as E36 M3 wouldn't be another diesel, though.

I know the Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade isn't on the list.  Hate GM interiors and I've heard so many awful things about AFM or DoD or whatever.  If it isn't as scary as I think, then much like the truck, I'm open to learning to live with the interior.

So, my friends, help me think through this!  I started this thought excercise with a statement of "I want to sell the GL350 and replace it with an Armada", and if I had to make a decision right now that would probably be it.  Is the Infiniti that much nicer than the Datsun?  Do I need to get over my distain for the interiors and look harder at a Tahoe?  Does anyone else make something that I should be considering?

I don't have much to add. If you can't find anything that you dislike about the Nissan or the Infiniti, those seem like the best bang for the buck. Their mileage is likely trash but they are pretty well sorted in the drivetrain department, I think. A high spec Armada is probably not that different than a QX. They look better to me as well. That might make the Infiniti cheaper on the used market though. 

I highly considered a Patrol base Armada back in 2021.  Expect more like 15 mpg unladen and worse laden.  

What I wanted to add is that I found MANY Armada and QX80's in 2wd/rwd.  So, if you see one unusually cheap...check.  Spotters guide: rotary knob on center console.

I know you are currently suffering through PTSD inflicted by a German vehicle, but the Audi Q7 is ticking most if not all of your boxes. I have been shopping for the Missus and have found plenty with a heated 2nd row, ventilated fronts, and most the bells and whistles with under 100k miles for around $25k. The towing package gets you a 7700 pound towing capacity.

I think you hit all of the options I would be looking at with the same requirements. GM didn't go with as IRS in the rear for a while, so an Expedition will have more 3rd row room than a comparable Tahoe. I think the Nissan/Infiniti is a solid option.

Be careful about the marketing departments that make tow ratings. 
My 96 dually (rated for 13K) hardly knew 16k was behind it. 9K was nothing

The so called "max tow" F150 my wife had for a bit was rated for 12.5K  I towed the same 9K with it... downright scary 

We were not stupid enough to hook our 12.3K 5th wheel to it, despite fords "advertised " rating, as it would not have been safe to go around the block.  

Now, the 3.5 TT, could haul that much all day! As long as you did not fall for their other marketing lie, and expect "economy " from it!!!

I've heard some complaints about its reliability, but anyone I know with one, has had good things to say. Just that it's MPG is about the same as the 5.0 V8 trucks. 

As a irrelevant side note:

Merc and Datsun threw me a bit...

Haven't seen the Nissan corporation sell anything under its former marketing name of  Datsun in several decades. 

And Merc has been the slang term for Mercurys (especially modified ones) since before a  Benz was even sold in the US! 

On a similar note, Beemers have 2 wheels, in common slang. Then 4 wheel Bavarian cars have traditionally been called Bimmers. 
But I'm old. And maybe a bit pedantic! 

Of course a "Steve" is a brand new slang one guy is heavily promoting, so I guess folks can make up any slang they want 

In reply to 03Panther :

My first exposure to "Merc" as a nickname was from either Fifth Gear or Top Gear as being short for Mercedes-Benz.  I guess it's a British thing.  Since I do occasionally have to remind myself that Mercury was a thing, I can afford the time to say the whole name and don't need a nickname for them.

I'm pretty well resigned that whatever I wind up with, fuel economy isn't going to be a highlight.  But if it costs me a little more in fuel to feed a more conventional V8, like in the Armada/QX80, I'd rather have that than a slightly smaller punch to the wallet at the gas station accompanied by a giant kick in the nuts trying to maintain and chase failures because somebody went and made things complicated and unreliable to gain 3 or 4 mpg.  Driving the Excursion was more like 9mpg around town and I wouldn't want to repeat that, generally speaking, but the 14-15mpg is something I can live with.

In reply to 10001110101 :

I didn't realize it was a three-row SUV until I went looking a bit.  I just don't know if I can really trust zee Germans anymore, though....

If you really want to tow an 8000 lb travel trailer, I think a 3.5EB Expedition Max will be a better tool for the job than an Armada or any of the Germans. The extra wheelbase and the prodigious low end torque will serve you well.

That said, I had a Nissan Titan for 150k miles (30k towing an 8500 lb car hauler) and the drivetrain was anvil reliable. I have a 2017 F150 3.5EB now, and it has not been as trouble free. But hey, complicated, finicky turbo sixes are kind of your jam, right? 

Diesels are built for towing. Either 3/4 or 1 ton. Probably the 2 best are the 99 to 03 7.3 powerstroke or the 08l6-07 GM LBZ. They'll never depreciate and will run forever. 

Before you write off the GM offerings, go sit in a 2016+ Escalade.  The interior is a big step up from the Chevy/gmc.  My 16 Escalade ESV is everything you are looking for, including having that quiet/quality feel you like about the GL.  I get 18mpg commuting, 22mpg all highway, 11 towing my 20' enclosed trailer.  The 6.2 has lots and lots of power.  Put in a tuner thing to disable the AFM if you want, I'm rolling the dice and leaving it active and changing the oil regularly.   It has been problem free and is an excellent truck, while also being nice enough that I don't hate daily driving it, which was not the case for my previous GMC Yukon XL.  

Seriously, though, I just love this thing. Great tow vehicle, we towed a 7k pound travel trailer all over the country with ours. Just don't expect good fuel economy when towing. 8-9 is about the best you will do. But it's just such a handy vehicle to have otherwise.

I've got some work to do on my trailer, so I haven't gotten into regular towing yet, and my maximum load will probably be about 3600 pounds, but I chose an Expedition Max for this question. 
 

This is the weekend I bought it. Probably about 5500 pounds total with the rental trailer. Abundant torque is nice. 

 

I know this will be hard to quantify, much like asking which shoes are the most comfortable.  For some, hiking boots.  For others, Converse All Stars.  But...

I've had wildly differing experiences with tow vehicles.  I tow a lot.  Like several times a month, and not for just a quick trip.  Some of them that you think would be great end up sucking, and others that you think will not be up to the task end up being great.

Case in point.  I had an 02 F150-7700 with the 5.4L and 4R100.  I towed 3500 lbs with it one summer for about 3000 miles.  It did just fine.  I sold that truck and bought a 1994 Mazda B4000 with the 4.0L and five speed.  It did better on the same trip with the same trailer the next summer.  No idea how, but it was better.  Was the hitch an inch lower putting more weight on the tongue?  No idea.  It was far slower, but the trailer was much more planted than behind the full size truck.

A similar thing happened with my 97 Lincoln Mark VIII.  I welded up a hitch for it, mostly for a bike carrier, but I found myself at dad's and remembered I wanted to borrow his spare lawn tractor while mine was being fixed.  We put it on the flatbed trailer and it probably tipped the scales at 2500 lbs total.  Everything told me this was stupid:  IRS, air suspension, squishy bushings, balloon white wall tires, but it actually did very impressively.

The short version is:  Just because a vehicle is rated to tow 5000 lbs doesn't mean it will do it well, or without white knuckles.  Conversely, there are some that are under-rated and would probably do well with much more.  I suggest you hit up some resources to see how others have rated their tow experience with these vehicles on your list.

Also do yourself a favor... look up those same vehicles and their tow ratings in Europe.  They're higher than they are here, which gives you an idea A) of what it really could tow, and B) how tow ratings are primarily marketing tools

On the QX/Armada, I've rented a few.  They are comfortable and right at or slightly above 400 hp depending on year and spec.  However, I never felt like that 5.6 Nissan felt very strong below about 4500.  Honestly I was happier with the 5.3 in various Burbs and Tahoe's.

On the 7.3 diesel, 10 years ago I would have agreed that it was one of the great ones.  But you have to remember that even the newest one is well over 20 years old now.  Also, unlike its Cummins competitor, it's a complicated bugger.  Navistar doesn't even know how HEUI works - it just does.  Some kind of an unexpected miracle like ChatGPT.

In reply to A 401 CJ :

Yeah... 20 years ago I had a chubbie for 7.3s and owned a few.  Now they're just old.  Modern diesels after 2007 all have DPFs, and a few years later they all got Urea injection.  They got so complex when the EPA mandated that light trucks have to follow the same emissions profiles as passenger cars.  Frustrating.  If I were buying a diesel right now, I would get the lowest-mileage 06 or 07 Duramax I could find.

Edit:  Don't fall for the V6 diesels either.  The one in the Ram (ecodiesel?) is a VM Motori, which has an excellent reputation for making great diesels, but they failed miserably on the V6.  Thousands of them punched a broken rod through the side of the block under warranty.

The real truth is, for 5000 lbs, you could almost do that with most of the 4-bangers these days.  Back in the 70s and 80s you had big blocks that only made 200 hp and 350 lb-ft because of the EPA smog restrictions.  Now you can get more than that out of a modern 4 cyl.  Heck, the new 2.7L 4-cyl turbo in a new Silverado is rated to tow 9600 lbs and makes 400 lbft at a basement-level 1500 rpms, and 310hp.

Have you bought a GMC Yukon yet. Because it sounds like exactly what you need.

I've been a Ford truck fanboy for a long time but when it was time to buy a newer truck, I was less than impressed with all the Ford offerings. 

We ended up with a 6.2 Silverado 1500 but I bet something with the smaller 8 would suit you just fine.

Hard to beat the simple, understressed pushrod v8 for slugging it out on a long towing trip. I'd much rather have that than a tiny, overworked turbocharged engine pulling its guts out.

Tiny, overworked turbo pulling it's guts out would have been accurate forty years ago. My 3.5 turns about 1700 RPM at 70 with a 5500 pound trailer. 

As a heads up, the expedition didn't get active cruise control until the 4th Gen in 2018.  I was going to get one a few years ago until I found out there were no cheap used ones with the feature.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

Tiny, overworked turbo pulling it's guts out would have been accurate forty years ago. My 3.5 turns about 1700 RPM at 70 with a 5500 pound trailer. 

While boosting it's little heart out the whole time, though. Still, the low-end torque of the 3.5EB is much better than most mid-size V8s these days.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Modern diesels after 2007 all have DPFs, and a few years later they all got Urea injection.  They got so complex when the EPA mandated that light trucks have to follow the same emissions profiles as passenger cars.  Frustrating.  If I were buying a diesel right now, I would get the lowest-mileage 06 or 07 Duramax I could find.

I went from an '07 LBZ to a '21 6.7 powerstroke, both of them bone stock with all as-delivered emissions equipment.  Yeah, the powerstroke has a DPF, but I've not yet had any reason to notice it.  And yeah, I have to put DEF in, but that's really not that big of a deal.  The 6.7 makes a ton more power, gets 2 mpg better fuel economy pulling my trailer, and the '21 F-250 is a much nicer and more comfortable place to be than an '07 GMT800.

Of course it's also a lot more expensive, even at the crazy prices LBZs are demanding these days.

03Panther said:

As a irrelevant side note:

Haven't seen the Nissan corporation sell anything under its former marketing name of  Datsun in several decades.

They brought the Datsun badge back from 2012-2022 to sell cheap vehicles in Russia and India.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

Tiny, overworked turbo pulling it's guts out would have been accurate forty years ago. My 3.5 turns about 1700 RPM at 70 with a 5500 pound trailer. 

While boosting it's little heart out the whole time, though. Still, the low-end torque of the 3.5EB is much better than most mid-size V8s these days.

That's with the boost gauge on zero. 

j_tso said:

03Panther said:

As a irrelevant side note:

Haven't seen the Nissan corporation sell anything under its former marketing name of  Datsun in several decades.

They brought the Datsun badge back from 2012-2022 to sell cheap vehicles in Russia and India.

I would imaging the number of folks on here that knew that, is a super small minority. It's highly unlikely that the op will be buying a tow pig, from Russia, or India. 
Could be proved wrong, but feeling fairly safe, in standing by my statement. 
although i do miss the couple of 620's i had in the '83/'84.