F1 2014

Tom_Spangler wrote: I'M NOT WRITING HIM OFF! He's an excellent driver. I just don't think he belongs in the top tier of F1 drivers.

Fair enough, but I still maintain he's a worthy champion. He's not a Rosberg 82 or Schumi 94. Heck you can argue that Prost in 86 or Kimi in 07 only won because Williams and McLaren respectively couldn't keep their team mates under control. Most of the time the driver with the best car wins. Are we saying Vettle is unworthy because he's had RedBulls and Alonso has been driving E36 M3ty Ferrari's for the last 4 years? I doubt many would argue Alonso is a better driver than Vettle, and much as it pains me to say it, probably the best driver in the world. But we don't keep throwing a question mark over his WDC's do we.

racerdave600 wrote: Of course now they are saying Vettel is having discussions with McLaren. It's going to be an interesting few months.

Ron keeps talking about Alonso and Vettel. I don't see Vettel going to McLaren. Even with the third best engine on the grid they have the second best package. I dont' see him wanting to leave the rouge cow fold. Alonso is a possibility. I doubt it, but then I said there was no chance of Kimi going back to the Maranello, so I wont rule it out this time. There has also been talk of HAmilton returning, but I dont' see wither him or Nico leaving at the end of the year no matter what melodramas play out for the rest of the year. Prost and Senna managed to survive in the same team for 3 dominant years, this is their first dominant year together.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: Of course now they are saying Vettel is having discussions with McLaren. It's going to be an interesting few months.

Ron keeps talking about Alonso and Vettel. I don't see Vettel going to McLaren. Even with the third best engine on the grid they have the second best package. I dont' see him wanting to leave the rouge cow fold. Alonso is a possibility. I doubt it, but then I said there was no chance of Kimi going back to the Maranello, so I wont rule it out this time. There has also been talk of HAmilton returning, but I dont' see wither him or Nico leaving at the end of the year no matter what melodramas play out for the rest of the year. Prost and Senna managed to survive in the same team for 3 dominant years, this is their first dominant year together.

Let us not discount that Alonso only lasted one year with Hamilton at Mclaren.

video report

news report said: Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg are driving for their futures at Monza this weekend after Mercedes warned them they would change their driver line-up for next season if the two could not get along together.

Wont this make for an interesting silly season if they can't "play nice"....

Hmmmm... IF it happens... where do "they" go?? And whom is invited into the open Mercedes seat??

edit - in other news... it is now official... Ferrari will be suppling HAAS racing in 2016

Tom_Spangler wrote: OK, how impressive is that, though? Hamilton doesn't have that great a record against his teammates. He tied with Alonso in 2007, spanked Kovaleinen in 08 and 09 (a guy who's out of F1 now), and as you say, was outpointed by Button during their years together and so far he's behind Nico in their year and a half together at Mercedes.

The 2007 season when Hamilton merely tied with Alonso, Alonso was back-to-back defending World Champion and Hamilton was a rookie. I'd say he matched up with his teammate fairly well. Button is very good IMO, just more dependent on having a good setup.

The biggest factor, unfortunately, seems to be marketable drivers.

Button is marketable in Japan. Always has been. He may be REQUIRED to be on the McLaren team by Honda for Honda to be on board.

I am sure Honda is trying to figure out who else they want to have in their commercials. Vettel is probably very saleable in Japan but is already linked to Nissan. So maybe Max Chilton or some new Japanese racer will be brought in.

Heck imagine what the Mobil 1 guys are going through. They had a great series of commercials with button and hamilton. Hamilton bolts so they get Stewart, tragedy occurs so who is next to button now? Not Magnussen so far.

Bottom line is money will drive the seats not skill. RedBull will do whatever it takes to keep Vettel in the team he is the face of Redbull.

My ranking of drivers is based on the cars we have this year. Different cars then maybe different ranking.

• Hamilton/Alonso
• Rosberg/Ricciardo/Bottas
• Button/Vettel/Raikonen/Bianchi
• All the rest.

Ricciardo and Bottas haven't been good enough long enough to be that high up the list.

I'd rank Perez and Massa above Raikkonen and Button this year. If it weren't for that dumb collision in Canada, they'd both be higher in the points. I didn't expect miracles, but I thought Raikkonen would do much better than he has. I don't believe Mercedes is dumb enough to screw with their driver lineup, but they do need to keep things from escalating. Lots of talk about Vettel and a possible move. Personally, I'd find it difficult to leave Red Bull after 4 championships, but maybe the idea of a Honda McLaren ride is too much to resist. I'd be surprised if Alonso stayed at Ferrari. Too many years in crappy cars and Alonso is closer to retirement than he'd care to admit. Silly season might be very interesting this year. And now that Haas is becoming a player, will he possibly get a former Ferrari driver to help get their cars sorted out during the first season?

z31maniac wrote: Ricciardo and Bottas haven't been good enough long enough to be that high up the list.

I'd say Ricciardo consistently outperforming his four-on-the-trot teammate at least makes that ranking credible.

jsquared wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Ricciardo and Bottas haven't been good enough long enough to be that high up the list.

I'd say Ricciardo consistently outperforming his four-on-the-trot teammate at least makes that ranking credible.

He's a great driver no doubt. But half a season and two wins, does not a 4-time champion make.

z31maniac wrote:

jsquared wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Ricciardo and Bottas haven't been good enough long enough to be that high up the list.

I'd say Ricciardo consistently outperforming his four-on-the-trot teammate at least makes that ranking credible.

He's a great driver no doubt. But half a season and two wins, does not a 4-time champion make.

Halh a season, three wins and the only non Mercedes driver to win, doing so with the least powerful power unit on the grid while constantly outperforming his four time WDC team mate does in my book. Magnussen is looking like a flash in the pan though since Australia

A lot of knowledgeable people were pegging Senna, Schumacher Alonso and Vettel as "great" very early in their careers. Those same people see the same qualities in Ricciardo.

Those people make their living in the business of F1...

Ricciardo got on the podium the first race of the year. A stupid technical glitch stripped away those points, otherwise he might be a factor in the championship. To hop into Webber's old seat and basically thump the crap out of Vettel all season long is amazing. Going toe to toe with the best F1 has to offer and behaving like he's been doing it for years is nothing short of incredible. I also can't help but think he hasn't reached his full potential yet.

Great race. The pressure is getting to Rosberg. Two unforced offs gave the race to Lewis even after his ERS left him 160hp short at the start so he fell back to Forth.

Riccardo is the real deal, as is Bottas. How many people did those two pass on track today? Awesome second half scrap between Checko and Button as well.

There were several very nice passes today, mostly Ricciardo and Bottas. Nico doesn't have the stones, it seems, but Lewis was damn lucky he got his electricity back. Coulda been another long, long day for him.

Sounded like the Italians still like Mr. Massa, too.

Another good race today - for 4th on down.

Hamilton was faster than Rosberg but Nico made it easier by screwing-up twice. I bet that was a relief to team management because they didn't have to issue team orders over the radio. Sadly, there are some "theorists" suggesting overshooting the chicane was because of team orders.

Bottas benefitted because he had Merc power and Ricciardo because of pit strategy but fans benefitted because those guys are berkeleying awesome on the track and on off. Massa finally had some good luck and was great. Magnussen got boned and even Bottas says he didn't deserve a penalty.

God, Ferrari engines suck hard this year and the chassis is in close chase. Gene Haas must be praying for a vastly better power unit next year.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Sounded like the Italians still like Mr. Massa, too.

yeah … sounds like it … he's sorta the next Rubens Barrichello … the Tifosi seem to understand what the "content" no. 2 drivers do for the marque … seemingly without complaint

oldsaw wrote: God, Ferrari engines suck hard this year and the chassis is in close chase. Gene Haas must be praying for a vastly better power unit next year.

It's going to be interesting. Haas isn't coming in until 2016, by then they will have had two years to improve. The problem is they are only allowed X number of points change each year for development with each part of the power plant being allowed to be changed each year. No surprise Ferrari are calling for a change in the rules to suit them.

LEt's hope that Sauber, Caterham and MArussia are still in existance by 2016 to give him some competition.

oldsaw wrote: Sadly, there are some "theorists" suggesting overshooting the chicane was because of team orders.

Agreed no team order to screw up, but the theorists are proved 'right' by the fact Toto Wolff was shown on camera smiling right after Nico's second off that handed the lead to the pursuing Hamilton. I think Lewis is definitely the team favorite and Nico is starting to lose the psychological war of attrition.

Change of subject. WTF with another bogus 5 second penalty for Magnussen. Poor kid can’t catch a break. Even the ‘agreeved’ party Bottas has said he didn’t think it was worth a penalty.

I think this one was more deserved than the first … the first, IMO, was bogus …. this one could have been because of the first one …

but I really don't think either were justified

jsquared wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote: OK, how impressive is that, though? Hamilton doesn't have that great a record against his teammates. He tied with Alonso in 2007, spanked Kovaleinen in 08 and 09 (a guy who's out of F1 now), and as you say, was outpointed by Button during their years together and so far he's behind Nico in their year and a half together at Mercedes.

The 2007 season when Hamilton merely tied with Alonso, Alonso was back-to-back defending World Champion and Hamilton was a rookie. I'd say he matched up with his teammate fairly well. Button is very good IMO, just more dependent on having a good setup.

Hamilton didn't tie Alonso -- they had the same number of points, but in that case the driver with the most wins is ahead, and Hamilton had more. He came second in the world championship, Alonso came third.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

oldsaw wrote: God, Ferrari engines suck hard this year and the chassis is in close chase. Gene Haas must be praying for a vastly better power unit next year.

It's going to be interesting. Haas isn't coming in until 2016, by then they will have had two years to improve. The problem is they are only allowed X number of points change each year for development with each part of the power plant being allowed to be changed each year. No surprise Ferrari are calling for a change in the rules to suit them. LEt's hope that Sauber, Caterham and MArussia are still in existance by 2016 to give him some competition.

Yeah I think hitching a trailer to Ferrari power units may not be the best choice. They would have been better off going Honda as those guys in Ohio would love to tout their American presence more. I suppose Ferrari probably gave them a good deal with some guarantees of equality to the factory cars.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Sadly, there are some "theorists" suggesting overshooting the chicane was because of team orders.

Agreed no team order to screw up, but the theorists are proved 'right' by the fact Toto Wolff was shown on camera smiling right after Nico's second off that handed the lead to the pursuing Hamilton. I think Lewis is definitely the team favorite and Nico is starting to lose the psychological war of attrition.

Yeah I think Hamilton has won the team over but Rosberg just might be lucky enough to win the championship. Unless he starts having gremlins, Hamilton has to win every remaining race. Period. Not a good position to be in.

Advan046 wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

oldsaw wrote: Sadly, there are some "theorists" suggesting overshooting the chicane was because of team orders.

Agreed no team order to screw up, but the theorists are proved 'right' by the fact Toto Wolff was shown on camera smiling right after Nico's second off that handed the lead to the pursuing Hamilton. I think Lewis is definitely the team favorite and Nico is starting to lose the psychological war of attrition.

Yeah I think Hamilton has won the team over but Rosberg just might be lucky enough to win the championship. Unless he starts having gremlins, Hamilton has to win every remaining race. Period. Not a good position to be in.

No, he doesn't.

Rosberg is 22 points ahead. You get a 7 point advantage for a win vs second, so that's 4 races. Since there are 6 left, that leaves room for Rosberg to win a race with Hamilton second, be 29 points up, and there are still 5 more races for Hamilton to get 35 over Rosberg. Then, of course, there's the double points in Abu Dhabi to make it even more complicated.

Also, while Mercedes has had a lot of 1-2s this year, they're "only" at 7 out of 13. If they have a 50% chance of getting a 1-2 in any race, then that's a 1 in 64 chance of doing it at all of the last 6.

That said, Nico clearly has a points advantage, while Hamilton appears to have some momentum and perhaps a psychological advantage.

Advan046 wrote: Yeah I think hitching a trailer to Ferrari power units may not be the best choice. They would have been better off going Honda as those guys in Ohio would love to tout their American presence more. I suppose Ferrari probably gave them a good deal with some guarantees of equality to the factory cars.

The powers-that-be aren't going to give the Mercedes engines a multi-year locked-in advantage, if only because it will cost them money in the form of reduced fan interest, lower TV sales #s, etc. I expect Ferrari and Renault will get the opportunity to catch up their engine performance by next year.