Finding rally tires

Hey, looking for some help. 

I have a 1980 Ford Fiesta that my son and I have been rallycrossing for the last few years, and I am looking to upgrade the tires (as a first step) for more speed... Even with the seriously limited power, I can't get enough traction to put it all to the ground.

The problem is finding a size that works with the existing wheels (not ready to upgrade those yet). Current tires are Yokohama 165/70 R12 all season radials. Finding any 12 inch rally tires is difficult. I found these

which would seem to be a big improvement, but I would rather not spend as much on shipping (from the UK) as for the tires.

So, any idea where to find these in the US? Any alternatives?

Thanks,

Hal

I’ve bought from rally.build and Dmack USA before, but I’m betting they won’t have tires that small.  I’m guessing you’ll need to buy from overseas.  ATV tires might fit, but I’m pretty sure they are not allowed.

eastsideTim said:

 ATV tires might fit, but I’m pretty sure they are not allowed.

I'm pretty sure they would be allowed in at least MF idk about PF but there are no specific tire rules other that no studs and DOT tires only in SF iirc

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. I've gotten used rally tires for (literally) a "case of cheap beer", so getting some 15's from anywhere would probably be the wisest use of your money to be honest. That's if you can fit 15's of course. There are 14" tires out there, and they're not as rare as 12's... but they're still pretty rare.

MrChaos said:

eastsideTim said:

 ATV tires might fit, but I’m pretty sure they are not allowed.

I'm pretty sure they would be allowed in at least MF idk about PF but there are no specific tire rules other that no studs and DOT tires only in SF iirc

It is under the safety inspection rules.

Tires offered for two, three or four wheeled motorbikes are not allowed. This includes motocross, dual‐sport and ATV tires that are not designed to withstand cornering side‐loads that can be generated by an automobile of substantially higher curb weight

I have nothing to add, I just think it’s awesome you rallycross a mk1 fiesta

Not cheap, but something like this?

Coker Tire 50648 Firestone Dirt Track Grooved Rear

bluej said:

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. 

That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it.   If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem. 

oldopelguy said:

bluej said:

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. 

That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it.   If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem. 

I have seen a steel wheel fail at a rally-X, however in this case it was probably fortunate. Guy running an Outback Sport hammered a hole that had developed during the day. He hit it way harder than he had any reason to. It tore the entire hub area out of the wheel out beyond the lug nuts. In this case I do believe it acted like a fuse avoiding damage to the LCA or shoving the strut through the chassis.

Other than that, I have never seen one fail.

MrChaos said:

eastsideTim said:

 ATV tires might fit, but I’m pretty sure they are not allowed.

I'm pretty sure they would be allowed in at least MF idk about PF but there are no specific tire rules other that no studs and DOT tires only in SF iirc

ATV tires are not allowed in any class.

The Maxsports look like a good deal.  Rally tires are not cheap, and oddball sizing means your options are new, or go without.

oldopelguy said:

bluej said:

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. 

That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it.   If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem. 

You've clearly never watched a steel wheel get blown over its lugnuts and parade merrily across the field.

Steel wheels wear out at the lug holes from repeated removal and installation, and they do flex a LOT.  I haven't seen them punch the center out like what can happen in circle track on OEM-type wheels, but I've seen a few wheels tear right over the lugs at rallycrosses.  A friend of mine switched to alloys after he noticed at one event that his steel wheels were so worn in the lug area that the lug nuts were bottoming out.

I'm in favor of banning steel wheels on rally tires, but it hasn't been proposed yet.  I am not thrilled about steel wheels and snow tires either, but snow tires are street legal so, in theory, they don't have to be constantly mounted and dismounted.  Additionally, you aren't going to be pulling as much side load on snow tires as you can on rally tires.  You can get about as much grip with rally tires on clay as you can with a good UHP summer tire on asphalt, and there are shock loads involved too... imagine cornering at max-lat and then bouncing off of a curb to get a little more turn-in.

Alloy wheels will fatigue too, but they won't flex and stretch like a steel wheel.  So alloys should be monitored for cracks to avoid one catastrophically breaking.  But IMO, there's more risk of a steel wheel getting torn off the lugs than an alloy failing suddenly and completely in a catastrophic way. 

Plus, steel wheels are heavier, which hurts performance

I'd contact Bob Woodman tires directly. Worst case would be getting 13" R888s and possibly grooving them. Best case they'll import some rare pirellis made of unobtainium for less than you can order them for. 

Count me among those that have seen steel wheels tear out the centers at rallycross. You can do it, but it's a time bomb if you're generating any real lateral force.

As to tires, I've had good luck ordering from Demon Tweeks. Yes shipping is absurd, but the tires themselves are significantly cheaper so it kind of balances out. 

As to the tires....there are places in the US you can get rally tires. And they are expensive, and shipping is almost as expensive as from the UK. The prices are MUCH cheaper from Demontweeks than anyplace in the US, trust me. I've been buying rally tires for 7-8 years now and always order from demontweeks. Rally tires are HEAVY, even shipping in the US is way more expensive than regular tires from tirerack (The US DMack dealer here in the US ships for $50/tire, IIRC, and his tires are twice as expensive as the same ones in the UK. 

As to the RB1s - they are a good rallycross tire in terms of traction, but are definitely NOT a "true" rally tire as they have a much softer sidewall. The upsdie for rally-x is that they weigh much less than a real rally tire (I run RB1s on my back wheels for more traction). In small sizes for actual rally tires, DMacks are the go-to, but I think they only go down to 13" sizes....

My suggestion: move up to 13" or even 14" aluminum wheel, order Maxsports from UK. YMMV. 

oldopelguy said:

bluej said:

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. 

That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it.   If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem. 

I've seen three or four steel wheels crack around the centers and come off at rallycrosses around here (Shawn and Katie's Impreza, a Mustang, and something else I can't recall). And that's in a region where only a few people actually use steel wheels. I think maybe I've seen one aluminum wheel break, and it was literally 40 years old and one of those super-awful GM wheels made with the most brittle of aluminum). If you use steel wheels and drive hard, they WILL break eventually. Almost nobody uses them for stage rally either (I say "almost" because I can't think of anyone, but I'm sure there is a looney out there someplace doing so...)

In reply to irish44j :

I disagree on pricing. The key to getting good rally tire pricing is to go to a supplier who ships multiple containers of R compounds for club racers from Europe a month. JX2, Woodman and Frisby are those suppliers. They don't sell or list rally tire pricing, as it's not their business model, but they'll throw 8 onto a container and bring them across the pond if you can wait 3-6 weeks for fresh rubber. 

captdownshift said:

In reply to irish44j :

I disagree on pricing. The key to getting good rally tire pricing is to go to a supplier who ships multiple containers of R compounds for club racers from Europe a month. JX2, Woodman and Frisby are those suppliers. They don't sell or list rally tire pricing, as it's not their business model, but they'll throw 8 onto a container and bring them across the pond if you can wait 3-6 weeks for fresh rubber. 

I used to order track tires from Frisby. I could have sworn I asked them years ago about getting rally tires and got a "we'd prefer not to." Maybe things have changed. I still only thing that would be a better deal if you are NEAR them and can pick up the tires directly. Shipping within the US for rally tires is still pretty pricey unless you're a high-volume dealer like TR.

In any case, we usually order rally tires from demontweeks several sets at a time (with other rally people), so we get pallet shipping and lower prices. 

The other thing to keep in mind is that the big importers are DEFINITELY paying import duties on a lot of this stuff (a lot of rally tires are made in China and subject to dumping duties, even if they come from Europe). When ordering 1-2 sets, they usually slip through customs under the radar (I've only gotten a customs bill twice out of 5-6 orders). So that can also have an effect on pricing. 

irish44j said:As to the RB1s - they are a good rallycross tire in terms of traction, but are definitely NOT a "true" rally tire as they have a much softer sidewall. The upsdie for rally-x is that they weigh much less than a real rally tire (I run RB1s on my back wheels for more traction). In small sizes for actual rally tires, DMacks are the go-to, but I think they only go down to 13" sizes....

My suggestion: move up to 13" or even 14" aluminum wheel, order Maxsports from UK. YMMV. 

Softer sidewalls perform better though.

Sidewall stiffness doesn't affect debeading as much as the way the bead of the tire is designed, and air pressure, and driving style.

145/70-12 Nanking Winter Tire $85

Perhaps these are worth looking into??  Certainly better than all-season...

In reply to Knurled. :

Stiffer sidewalls should make it harder to de-bead by spreading the impact further around the tire (meaning it hits more of the bead), right?  But then again, a stiff bead will also do that to some extent.  Tall sidewalls definitely reduce de-beads though, as more of the impact energy can be dissipated as sidewall flex, etc. instead of being transferred right into the bead.  

In reply to irish44j :

Hmm...  I sent you a PM.

13" should be researched as that is a good alternative for a MK1 Fiesta.  Ist gen Escort/ Lynxes would be a source--and yes, there are 13' alloys  (OEM) for that application.

irish44j said:

oldopelguy said:

bluej said:

It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when. 

That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it.   If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem. 

I've seen three or four steel wheels crack around the centers and come off at rallycrosses around here (Shawn and Katie's Impreza, a Mustang, and something else I can't recall). And that's in a region where only a few people actually use steel wheels. I think maybe I've seen one aluminum wheel break, and it was literally 40 years old and one of those super-awful GM wheels made with the most brittle of aluminum). If you use steel wheels and drive hard, they WILL break eventually. Almost nobody uses them for stage rally either (I say "almost" because I can't think of anyone, but I'm sure there is a looney out there someplace doing so...)

This is the first I've heard of steel wheels being risky. They're the norm for offroad use and I've been beating the E36 M3 out of some steel wheels on my Samurai for years now. I don't mount and dismount them often and the holes still look good and fit well. They don't see much lateral force but they do see over 50 hours of rapid-fire vertical shocks per year, many of which would be considered catastrophic by rallycross or stage rally standards. Should I be worried?

In reply to GameboyRMH :

For off-road use, steel is generally fine.  It's the high side loads and mostly sudden side impacts that are a concern for causing failure, most of which doesn't occur much in normal off-road use.