One would think so, but I've generally found that "I don't care about classing" means "I want to run whatever class I want and I don't want you to care about my classing."
One would think so, but I've generally found that "I don't care about classing" means "I want to run whatever class I want and I don't want you to care about my classing."
I really think that the crooked drags sound fun. Basically a drag race where you line up side by side with a Christmas tree and two mirror image courses. Race the clock, but also race a real person. Bracket style with break out times or standard autocross timing. You would need a lot more room for that.
Duke wrote:tuna55 wrote: I am not going to read it all, but I will say as a 'never done it' that I could never justify the time spent for the incredibly small amount of track time. Wife and kids rule all.The Philly SCCA guys give out trophies after all official runs are in, then volunteers who offer to stay and pack up get free fun runs and everybody else goes home. So the people who want to stay get extra seat time and the people who want to vamoose can do so. I come to drive so to me the extra half hour or 45 minutes is well worth it for 4 or 5 extra passes.
Philly also has a large (and growing) kids contingent. I think DC does as well. we have a bunch of kids in karts, and some of them are getting damn fast. their parents also get to run b/c they all take turns keeping track of the little ones. i think most of the parents get a bigger kick out of watching their kids do well than in doing well themselves.
i can say that having autoXed for about 7 years before i first got onto a race track was a huge help. i've never done a track day or HPDE (no competition, so not that interesting to me), but i was able to jump right into a W2W situation b/c of my autoX experience. i don't know anyone who has had trouble slowing down their hands, feet, or mind in that transition; by contrast, you have a lifetime to make decisions. W2W is huge fun...probably more fun than autoX, but i've also never gotten quite the adrenaline rush on track that i've gotten on an autoX course. i've never come off track shaking from the adrenaline (maybe b/c it's all been endurance racing), but i've had autoX runs that took me 20-30 seconds to "come down" from.
vwcorvette wrote: Time only....hmmm. Never thought of that. No classing, just time to compare, no points. New discussion for the next club meeting methinks.
George, we should probably get one autocross in before another re-write on the rules. 
This pretty much what we do though, we don't do the pax thing. So everybody does raw time and publish the results by class and overall.
vwcorvette and davestey and I have run with SCCV(vermont). The things I like about how we do things. Classing is more simplistic than scca, we have ~6 classes, not including novice and ladies. In general I think the consensus of our participants is to get the maximum amount of runs in our allotted time. A majority don't care if their time gets messed up by a timing gliche, as that means they get to go for another run. We have good events and bad events.
Bottom line is sometimes we have our act together, and some times we don't. It's a club. Sometimes folks lose sight of that. I think what is unique about many of our members is that autocross is merely the gateway drug for other motorsports activities. Our events are used more for tune ups and preperation for other events.
What is unique about autocross is that it can bring together very different types of motorheads.
-Folks serious about autocross, to the point they want a nationally competitive car.
-Folks that are just there to have a safe, fun and legal place to flog their car.
-Folks who use autocross to get more seat time, but concentrate harder on a different form of motorsport.
-Complete novices that are just beginning their motorsport journey.
Those folks want different things for the most part. It's amazing that this one discipline can scratch that itch for many, many folks. I think trying to "fix" it is more for an individual region/club to do based on it's membership. I think the sport as a whole is OK.
I like our club. It isn't perfect, and it never will be. Their events put a smile on my face, and that is what it is all about.
^^^^^what Seth said!
I started autocrossing in 1980 with BSCC out in Washington state. Very laid back club, with about 13 core members that put on the events (along with TSD rallys). We had a limited number of classes (Novice, small sedan, medium sedan, large sedan (based on displacement), Sports A, Sports B, Sports C (basied on displacement), Prepared (production based cars with "significant race modifications"), and Modified (basically any special, formula car, or sports racer). It was surprising how well those classes covered everythng from stock through Stret Preperared, to Street mod all in one street class while still being ultra competetive.
We'd have 60-90 cars running out at the airport trak, with more than one car on course at a time. 4 regular runs, and you had to work for half a day (2 run groups, morning and afternoon, but no specific group for any classes). And usually had time for 3-4 fun runs afterwards.
You could be laid back and have fun, or competetive and get your results (we had a lot of national champions in the club, from Greg and Jodi Fordahl, to Ron and Karen Babb and Susan Hagemann, Curt Ormiston, as well as others, so if you wanted to see how you stacked up nationally, you could do it). After a bit, we started getting a lot of the PNW region SCCA members using our events, and then our venues to compete and prep for nationals. The SCCA guys loved the laid back nature of the envents along with the real competition. But the influx of competitors made us up the number of classes and it made organizing things awful stressful. I stopped competing and helping run the events back in the mid '90s when outsiders started being anal and complaining/yelling at people running the event, and demanding that it be run more like an SCCA event so they could better judge theri performance against "real" classes. 
An example is the fact that we did walkthroughs in the morning and at lunch. In the morning of one event, however, myself and my friend Bill were in charge of tech and registration, so we didn't walk the course. At lunch we did some last minute registration and tech for latecomers, then went out to walk the course. Bill was only halfway through his first and only walkthrough when cars started lining up for the afternoon runs, and some of the outsiders started yelling out at him to get off the course NOW so they could run. Couldn't wait for 2 more minutes for him to finish his walkthrough, which had been delayed due to accomodating THEIR latecomer status. A couple of us from the club told them to shut up, but they started up a chant that others joined in on. Very disrespectful. Bill stormed off the course, over to his car, got in and left.
At the next club meeting, he quit the club. And I decided that I didn't need to be part of running the event. Instead, I'd show up as a "normal" competitior, put in the minimum amount of time to get my runs in, and leave. And that's what I've done now ever since. I tried to get involved in the Susquehanna SCCA events as a novice instructor, but there was still a bit of that attitude present there, as well. it's got to be fun, and if it's not fun, it shouldn't be done.
I'd love to run them again like we used to. Fun and competetive, without the stress.
Chris_V wrote: An example is the fact that we did walkthroughs in the morning and at lunch. In the morning of one event, however, myself and my friend Bill were in charge of tech and registration, so we didn't walk the course. At lunch we did some last minute registration and tech for latecomers, then went out to walk the course. Bill was only halfway through his first and only walkthrough when cars started lining up for the afternoon runs, and some of the outsiders started yelling out at him to get off the course NOW so they could run. Couldn't wait for 2 more minutes for him to finish his walkthrough, which had been delayed due to accomodating THEIR latecomer status. A couple of us from the club told them to shut up, but they started up a chant that others joined in on. Very disrespectful. Bill stormed off the course, over to his car, got in and left. At the next club meeting, he quit the club. And I decided that I didn't need to be part of running the event. Instead, I'd show up as a "normal" competitior, put in the minimum amount of time to get my runs in, and leave. And that's what I've done now ever since. I tried to get involved in the Susquehanna SCCA events as a novice instructor, but there was still a bit of that attitude present there, as well. it's got to be fun, and if it's not fun, it shouldn't be done. I'd love to run them again like we used to. Fun and competetive, without the stress.
Totally see your point. And can't fault what so ever what you and your friend did.
But as an "organizer" - I do my best to make the jerks mad, and not accomidate thier "position" to the best that I can. Most of the people I run with support me, and those people don't come back. It takes some gumption, or something, to do it. But I can say that it's very, very worth it.
I respect what those people want, but one has to be honest that there are alternatives that fully meet thier needs without impinging on my version. (I always make it a point not to modify a finish if someone claims the need to go WOT through the finish line).
Eric
I won't go into the great detail I did in thread v1.0, but here are a couple ideas:
Paid day laborers. Srsly. Picking up a cone and putting it in the box ain't rocket surgery. 6hr event X 10 unskilled laborers @ $5/hr. = $300. Assuming 200 drivers (and seriously, if your region is having problems with less than 150-200, you're just 'not doin' it right') that's an additional $1.50 per driver. Show up, run, go home. I think the guys who choose to get there early and stay late should get free entry.
Junior karts are great. Working the course while junior karts are running is a tremendous waste of everyone but the kids' and parents' time. If your kid is running, you're working the course. Junior karts should run at the very end of the day, after everyone else is done.
Assuming no paid laborers: Worker change on the fly. If your region isn't doing it, you're wasting time.
Online registration should close 3 days before the event. The number of registered drivers will dictate which classes run when (make sense?) I.e., there's no point in having one run group with 80 drivers, and one run group with 30. Can't get your E36 M3 together and register before the event? Tough E36 M3. Manage your time more efficiently.
Rusnak_322 wrote: I really think that the crooked drags sound fun. Basically a drag race where you line up side by side with a Christmas tree and two mirror image courses. Race the clock, but also race a real person. Bracket style with break out times or standard autocross timing. You would need a lot more room for that.
It's called pro-solo in the SCCA, I haven't heard much about it recently or ever tried it but I'm sure it still exists.
SupraWes wrote:Rusnak_322 wrote: I really think that the crooked drags sound fun. Basically a drag race where you line up side by side with a Christmas tree and two mirror image courses. Race the clock, but also race a real person. Bracket style with break out times or standard autocross timing. You would need a lot more room for that.It's called pro-solo in the SCCA, I haven't heard much about it recently or ever tried it but I'm sure it still exists.
Monster trucks also race like this.
Pro Solos are a lot of fun, especially if you are good enough (or lucky enough in the case of the Bonus Challenge) to make a challenge.
However, if you prefer laid back events, they probably aren't for you. Things are pretty intense and it tends to attract the "serious" folks. In a lot of ways, I prefer Tours. I get do my thing against some of the best, but there is a lot of time to socialize and look around at the cool stuff...
Alfadriver, why that attitude towards the finish?
Straight wide open finishes with plenty of run off are the safest....and they aren't a buzzkill!
steverife wrote: Alfadriver, why that attitude towards the finish? Straight wide open finishes with plenty of run off are the safest....and they aren't a buzzkill!
Ususally because it's a waste of space to have a huge run off area. For every meter that is after the finish is a meter that is not part of the course. Run off spaces tend to be small, so we find it more effective to make sure everyone is going slowly at the end. To call the WOT high speed finishes the safest comes from someone who does not bear the responsibilioty of making a safe course, and noting what I have personally seen + what I've seen aftermath pictures of.
As for the buzzkill- if you see it as that, I don't actually care. Seriously.
Especially since the prior 40-50 seconds were on the hair edge of driving skill- and it take zero skill to be WOT going straight? No- waste of space, increases the risk of a moron NOT applying the brakes outside of the course, and it's the same course for everyone.
Like I've posted before, if you don't like it, there are plenty of alternatives to attend.
Eric
I've designed courses and was an SCCA safety steward for a while. I obviously haven't had the opportunity to note what you have witnessed.
From my experiences, I've witness several people hit things going through awkward finishes. A lot of "local" courses get every one "on the hair edge of driving skill" and get the car all loaded up, then don't give a lot of room to get the car settle before slowing. Course designers sometimes tend to make the assumption that the ultra aggressive are going to check up before the lights to ensure a safe stopping distance. It just doesn't work that way. I know because I'm one of the ones that isn't going to lift...
I've had this discussion with several course designers and safety stewards. Luckily, non of them were as hard headed as you....
steverife wrote: I've designed courses and was an SCCA safety steward for a while. I obviously haven't had the opportunity to note what you have witnessed. From my experiences, I've witness several people hit things going through awkward finishes. A lot of "local" courses get every one "on the hair edge of driving skill" and get the car all loaded up, then don't give a lot of room to get the car settle before slowing. Course designers sometimes tend to make the assumption that the ultra aggressive are going to check up before the lights to ensure a safe stopping distance. It just doesn't work that way. I know because I'm one of the ones that isn't going to lift... I've had this discussion with several course designers and safety stewards. Luckily, non of them were as hard headed as you....
I don't doubt you'll find more stubborn people than I am.
And if you want to take a 20 second penalty for hitting 10 cones after the finish- that's fine with me. Assuming that you don't actually go WOT before and after the finish- we give plenty of room to slow down. And since there was SO MUCH TIME at wot before that, I just can't accept the need that you have to be wot at the finish. You are assuming that non WOT/straight finishes are awkward- they are not. They are only for the fools who just have to go WOT at all circumstances when they see the finish cones.
Like I said, if you are going to be a pain about a subject like this, I'll always do my best to make you unhappy, so that the happy people stay, and the unhappy people don't. I'd much rather have an event with 60 drivers who are going to have fun than one with 80 where 60 have fun.
Eric
SupraWes wrote:Rusnak_322 wrote: I really think that the crooked drags sound fun. Basically a drag race where you line up side by side with a Christmas tree and two mirror image courses. Race the clock, but also race a real person. Bracket style with break out times or standard autocross timing. You would need a lot more room for that.It's called pro-solo in the SCCA, I haven't heard much about it recently or ever tried it but I'm sure it still exists.
I just read about communities putting these in to try and prevent illegal street races
http://www.floridastreetscene.net/showthread.php?t=46601
alfadriver wrote:steverife wrote: I've designed courses and was an SCCA safety steward for a while. I obviously haven't had the opportunity to note what you have witnessed. From my experiences, I've witness several people hit things going through awkward finishes. A lot of "local" courses get every one "on the hair edge of driving skill" and get the car all loaded up, then don't give a lot of room to get the car settle before slowing. Course designers sometimes tend to make the assumption that the ultra aggressive are going to check up before the lights to ensure a safe stopping distance. It just doesn't work that way. I know because I'm one of the ones that isn't going to lift... I've had this discussion with several course designers and safety stewards. Luckily, non of them were as hard headed as you....
For my courses, I'll do whatever I need to slow people down beforehand, but I'll make certain that people are accellerating through the finish and there is room to get the car settled BEFORE they HAVE to brake. Otherwise, you are going to get spins or a painfully tight finish.
Every good course that I've driven seems to have this in common...
steverife wrote: For my courses, I'll do whatever I need to slow people down beforehand, but I'll make certain that people are accellerating through the finish and there is room to get the car settled BEFORE they HAVE to brake. Otherwise, you are going to get spins or a painfully tight finish. Every good course that I've driven seems to have this in common...
So if the rest of the course is wide, sweeping, and interesting, it's bad since you can't do WOT at the finish???
Sorry, the finish does not define the rest of the course.
I think at our next event, I'll put the finish lights just befire a 90 deg bend, so that you have to be braking to hit the finish lights. 
The location of the finish is totally abitrary. I can put it wherever I want, and it's the same for everyone. Explain to me why it's so important to HAVE to accelerate at WOT before the line? Why can't it be on an apex, or a hard braking area, or any of the other parts that are on the course before that?
Smart drivers know that spins after the finish will cost them cone penalties. So they don't spin.
There's ALL of the course before the finish. And you get to drag race from teh start line. The finish does not need more of that.
And, honestly, if you give up space for a long slow down area? I'd much rather have more time ON the course, and not AFTER the course.
Anyway, I see that I'm not going to make you happy. So I'm not going to try.
Eric
(I didn't read much of this thread)
SCCA auto-x around here (specifically MA at Devens) became pointless. 275 cars, 100+ novices, 8-9 hours for 4 runs. Nope.
BMWCCA was great when they were running BMW's and non-BMW's on 2 separate courses. 8-9 runs in a day was pretty good. Then they ran everyone on one course and you'd have to register within 1 minute of online registration's opening in order to get in. Nope.
There was/is a local club that does it very grassroots. For insurance purposes, they only time w/ stopwatches, because once there is timing equipment, it's a racing event rather than a "school". They run on a large course and have chase cars to pick up cones. No working the course. The upside is 13-15 runs in a day. The downside is the $125 cost--which is worth it IMHO.
I'll be a douche and keep the details to myself, just because I don't care to blow it up and have it ruined just yet.
steverife wrote: For my courses, I'll do whatever I need to slow people down beforehand, but I'll make certain that people are accellerating through the finish and there is room to get the car settled BEFORE they HAVE to brake. Otherwise, you are going to get spins or a painfully tight finish. Every good course that I've driven seems to have this in common...
this i agree with having attended a course where the finish was around a corner without a nice straight slowdown area.... with a slightly damp course the first quick car ended up spinnout out through the braking zone, through a few cones, and sideways into a curb blowing up side impact airbags, breaking wheel and control arms. he was fine as he wasnt going that fast, but he also wasnt an inexperienced finish drifting WOT-happy moron. the course was simply pinched at the end.
fortunately for our club we use an airfield so theres LOTS of space for anything we desire. though i suppose we pay for that with crappy new england 6 month driving seasons...
In reply to gamby:
Judging by your attitude in this post, maybe I'm glad you don't come out to our events, but you've got a lot wrong here. Maybe you haven't been to an NERSCCA event in a few years, but 7-8 runs is the norm at our events in good weather. We got 9+ fun runs up at NHMS earlier this year. And who cares how many novices there are? Are you forgetting that you were one, once?
I'm not exactly a fan of Boston BMWCCA's registration system, but if you get in, the events are fantastic. They tend to fill up in about 12 hours (not 1 minute), just set up a calendar alert or something. It's not impossible. The alternative would be having less than 8 runs, which would seemingly also piss you off. IMO the separate courses were lame, and in any case it's not feasible to do that in the space we have available now. Sunday was about an 80 second course with several spots where I was onthe rev limiter in 2nd in my E36. Nice job finding a way to complain about that :).
There are certainly no shortage of clubs to run with at Devens, all with their pluses and minuses. $125 for an untimed autocross is pretty ridiculous, though.
Josh wrote: I'm not exactly a fan of Boston BMWCCA's registration system, but if you get in, the events are fantastic. They tend to fill up in about 12 hours (not 1 minute), just set up a calendar alert or something. It's not impossible. The alternative would be having less than 8 runs, which would seemingly also piss you off. IMO the separate courses were lame, and in any case it's not feasible to do that in the space we have available now. Sunday was about an 80 second course with several spots where I was onthe rev limiter in 2nd in my E36. Nice job finding a way to complain about that :).
so you were at sunday 6/27's event? i had my lachssilber e30 m3 there, what rungroup were you in?
poopshovel wrote: I won't go into the great detail I did in thread v1.0, but here are a couple ideas: 1. Paid day laborers. Srsly. Picking up a cone and putting it in the box ain't rocket surgery. 6hr event X 10 unskilled laborers @ $5/hr. = $300. Assuming 200 drivers (and seriously, if your region is having problems with less than 150-200, you're just 'not doin' it right') that's an additional $1.50 per driver. Show up, run, go home. I think the guys who choose to get there early and stay late should get free entry. 2. Junior karts are great. Working the course while junior karts are running is a tremendous waste of everyone but the kids' and parents' time. If your kid is running, you're working the course. Junior karts should run at the very end of the day, after everyone else is done. 3. Assuming no paid laborers: Worker change on the fly. If your region isn't doing it, you're wasting time. 4. Online registration should close 3 days before the event. The number of registered drivers will dictate which classes run when (make sense?) I.e., there's no point in having one run group with 80 drivers, and one run group with 30. Can't get your E36 M3 together and register before the event? Tough E36 M3. Manage your time more efficiently.
once you're hiring people to work the course, that is a huge potential can of worms. if one of those workers gets hurt, you've put the entire program at risk unless your insurance is going to cover them (and if it is, you ain't just slipping them $30 for 6 hours of work). blame lawyers and litigious jerks all you want, but that's reality. the why doesn't matter.
we run our junior karts this way (we usually have 4-5 runs at our events): 2-3 runs at the beginning of one heat, the res to fthe runs at the beginning of the next. this gives them time to digest and learn, rather than just basically taking one run after another. they pay the full entry fee, so they are entitled to run "normally", which includes 5 minutes between runs. we've tried pretty much every other way, including at the end of the day...that means you have 4-5 people around to pack up, b/c everyone else goes home. that sucks.
agreed. problem is, many people seem incapable of handling this.
events could be run incredibly efficiently if everyone was experienced. but they aren't, and the more a group focuses on novices, the less efficiently the event will generally run.
1.once you're hiring people to work the course, that is a huge potential can of worms. if one of those workers gets hurt, you tattoo "MS-13" on his head, tie a car battery to his neck, and throw him in the creek.
fixed.
I joke, I keed.
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