The wagon sales in North America took a huge dive when the full size full frame wagons started disappearing or being really downsized so people stated moving into trucks,tahoe,suburbans other suvs etc. In the day these cars ruled the roads like trucks and suvs etc do now.
In reply to Chris_V :
If we look at what kid haulers have been traditionally, you think of mid or full size American wagons in the 70s and 80s. Then Minivans in the 90s. And now midsize SUVs like the CRV and RAV4.
Id bet those are all pretty similar interior size-wise.
I can totally see why his family didn't fit in the 3 series wagon. But I can tell you my larger family - 2 adults 2 kids, big dog and small dog in crates - fits perfectly in a 92 Volvo wagon.
Its just that large wagons are nonexistent now. And I can understand why families want an SUV even if I hate them.
But my next family hauler will be a minivan.
Type Q said:With pedestrian safely regs, side impact protection and a host of other requirements these days the hood needs to be fairly high as well as the belt line. Put a low roof on it and you have gun silt window openings like the current Camaro. Put a tall green house on it and you have a CUV.
We thought that up until now. But the 2018 Accord proves that the doors don't have to be next to your ear and the back of the hood doesn't need to be at your chest when you stand next to it. Either the car companies couldn't figure it out until now OR didn't want to spend the money OR they even wanted to make everything as SUV-like as possible. OR all three.
As far as I can tell we need to find the person who started the stigma against minivans and beat them mercilessly.
All of this could have been avoided if all those people who needed a minivan just bought a berkeleying minivan instead of "not wanting to be a soccer mom"(despite all of them driving massive SUVs) and demanding some vehicular abortion that fails to bridge the gap between wagon and minivan.
My younger sister is a perfect example of this. She goes looking for a new car to replace her diamante now that she has a kid and steadfastly refused to even consider a minivan. She has some ugly ass chevy cuv that has barely any more room than the car she replaced.
I'd love the sea of small suvs to be replaced with large wagons and minivans for people who actually need the space and normal cars for those who don't but good luck getting that to ever happen with the massive boner US automakers have had for shoving the damn things off on people.
Regarding the SUV/CUV vs. wagon/van arguments, some of the move to CUV and full on trucks is the perception of need and that's very difficult to change, especially when the pro-cuv/truck argument is so appealing. Speak to full size truck owners and many of them claim to "need" the vehicle. Lots of people live their lives with midsize and smaller cars without issue. For the most part I suspect they aren't any different, they have families, travel, home renovations to complete, etc. Perhaps they pay to have that load of gravel delivered, or borrow/rent something to move that couch, because those are edge cases for the majority of people and they are dealt with accordingly. It's a matter of accepting constant minor inconvenience (worse dynamics, operating costs, initial purchase cost, etc) vs. infrequent moderate inconvenience (vehicle can't handle unusual volume requirements).
How many people strongly desire AWD (a key motivator for CUV buyers) for the perceived safety or traction benefits, yet don't use winter tires and run lousy no season tires the rest of the time?
In terms of the cool factor, CUVs are "rugged," which is sales spin for utilitarian which the van/wagon are firmly stuck with. They purposely make CUVs look less attractive with cladding to make this differentiation clear. Pontiac speed groves and bulges might be dead, but cladding has lived on forever.
In reply to Snrub : There is a real honest need for the workhorse a proper truck can be. Mine actually hauled home my house. Pieces at a time. ( 55,000 board feet of hardwood Timbers, tons of Granite from the local quarry, etc etc etc ) In addition it launches and recovers my 28 foot cabin cruiser every spring and fall. Plus drags the race car trailer all over the country.
So I accepted 19 mpg on the highway and 17 in town for the 20 years and 371,000 trouble free miles I had it.
When the dreaded tin worm killed it, I replaced it with another that will likely haul my decaying corpse to the boneyard.
Cars on the other hand for the most part are transportation modules as soulless as the factories that stamp them out.
We need the ability to haul three medium size dogs in a cargo area.
We went from a Forester (still mostly a car in 2002) to a Jeep Patriot (used Subies were too expensive). The mall-rated Patriot has been a shockingly good little vehicle, very practical and gives okay economy (mid 20s). But...both of us are tired of the SUV-ness of it. It isn't fast, it isn't fun to drive. We'd much rather have a car/wagon. But the cute-ute and SUV market has killed most of them off. CUVs are nowhere near as practical nor roomy as a proper car based wagon. Handling is tippy. Fuel economy is lackluster. Beats the hell out of me why people buy them.
So say a prayer to the God of Check Engine Lights, for I am seriously considering buying a VW Jetta Sportwagen next. Shudder.
In reply to Snrub :
So much truth in that post. CUV buyers are swayed by perception of need, not actual need. Which is no different than how most products are marketed anyway.
Car buying is not an exercise in pure rationality for most. We may think we need certain things, but most of us can get by just fine with much less. That can be said about anything we consume.
I just cannot fathom the idea that Ford won't be keeping the Focus (the regular Focus) around, when I see so freaking many of them on the road. There's no way they're not making money on them. Fiestas are everywhere too, and Fusions... I can't think of a Ford I don't see a ton of.
I don't understand the "need vs want/perception" thing for CUVs. That's the case for EVERY car, other than maybe 1% of sales.
Who NEEDS a sports car? Nobody. Who NEEDS a sporty sedan/wagon/coupe? Nobody. But somehow sporty car people can justify their buys and be angry that people buy trucks/SUVs/CUV's without a real need.
Heck, I would bet that a majority of 4 door sedans are used by one person most of the time- especially during commuting.
If people bought what they really *needed* to commute with- the Fiero and CRX would still be in production, and cars that fill that actual need would be made by everyone. And that whole commute and not use issue is the entire argument for ride sharing (which still makes no sense to me, since everyone commutes at the same time).
As for CUVs popularity- one should go take a look at popular cars in the 50's. They sat high, were easy to get in and out of, etc- just like a crossover. This phenomenon is hardly new. We have had a CUV or a small SUV for a little over a decade now, and will never go back to a car for our main vehicle. BTW, I'd never compare a CUV to a minivan- our neighbor has one, and it's considerably larger than our Escape. Modern Minivans are closer to 70's full a sized vans that people seem to remember. The only difference is that they are FWD instead of RWD.
I "need" a minivan with 6000# towing capacity. For amusement I can keep my '03 CooperS and Miata until my hips act up and can no longer work a clutch. I fell in love with the rental F250 crewcab I took to the Challenge, but I just can't see myself daily driving something that large. I guess I like a small cocoon instead of a large one as 90% of my driving is solo. Not sure how I feel about Ford dropping cars, it's understandable, but lamentable to me. I'm the guy who goes to the auto show to see the four cylinder , manual shift econocars (which are quickly disappearing) so I'm not their key demographic.
DeadSkunk said:I "need" a minivan with 6000# towing capacity. For amusement I can keep my '03 CooperS and Miata until my hips act up and can no longer work a clutch. I fell in love with the rental F250 crewcab I took to the Challenge, but I just can't see myself daily driving something that large. I guess I like a small cocoon instead of a large one as 90% of my driving is solo. Not sure how I feel about Ford dropping cars, it's understandable, but lamentable to me. I'm the guy who goes to the auto show to see the four cylinder , manual shift econocars (which are quickly disappearing) so I'm not their key demographic.
Agreed. The more I drive my 2008 GC, the more I'm unwilling to give up the general utility of it. I personally haven't seen the hauling capacity as being an issue - I've hauled some pretty heavy stuff in mine and it doesn't seem to notice, including a 900 lb scissor lift. I hung a 300+ lb dual sport dirt bike off the 2" hitch and the van drove like it wasn't there (which really surprised me). The one thing that makes me hesitant to replace the '08 with a newer version is the 3600 lb towing capacity. I could swear I saw specs somewhere that listed the capacity at 5000 lb with a weight-distribution hitch, but I can't find it. If Chrysler saw fit to increase the towing capacity of the Pacifica I could be in trouble. Of course, their argument would be to buy a Durango or a Ram, but I don't' want to give up the minivan utility, which beats those in spades.
While I enjoy my 2006 MCS once in awhile, I don't care for beating it up on the roads I commute on. And that kinda goes for any sort of "car" these days. At least for me - fun weekend and occasional toys, but for my commute less than fun. It'll be interesting when I finally get my TDI back on the road and if I feel the same about it as well. My plan is to sell the GC when I get the TDI running again and use my giant E-350 van when I need something to do "van/truck stuff" (and the E-350 will have no trouble towing whatever I would need to tow). But the E-350 is gigantic, so I would definitely use it less.
So I can totally understand Ford not wanting to continue with sedans. It's not like they haven't made a serious effort - the current stable are generally good, competitive cars. But if the corporate MPG balance isn't needed as much anymore, then it's hard to justify their existence. After all, Ford is business and needs to make money.
Now an EV minivan... that interests me a lot. So I have an eye on the pending new VW bus in 2022.
alfadriver said:As for CUVs popularity- one should go take a look at popular cars in the 50's. They sat high, were easy to get in and out of, etc- just like a crossover. This phenomenon is hardly new.
Cars had to be tall until the '60s since because of all the dirt roads. When the Model T came out, probably over 90% of lane miles in this country weren't paved. They needed those tall skinny tires and high ground clearance to deal with all the chuckholes, wooden bridges, mud and poor grading.
I'd put a Model T with a locked axle up against just about anything made today for low-speed off-roading especially in 2WD.
alfadriver said:I don't understand the "need vs want/perception" thing for CUVs. That's the case for EVERY car, other than maybe 1% of sales.
Who NEEDS a sports car? Nobody. Who NEEDS a sporty sedan/wagon/coupe? Nobody. But somehow sporty car people can justify their buys and be angry that people buy trucks/SUVs/CUV's without a real need.
Heck, I would bet that a majority of 4 door sedans are used by one person most of the time- especially during commuting.
If people bought what they really *needed* to commute with- the Fiero and CRX would still be in production, and cars that fill that actual need would be made by everyone. And that whole commute and not use issue is the entire argument for ride sharing (which still makes no sense to me, since everyone commutes at the same time).
As for CUVs popularity- one should go take a look at popular cars in the 50's. They sat high, were easy to get in and out of, etc- just like a crossover. This phenomenon is hardly new. We have had a CUV or a small SUV for a little over a decade now, and will never go back to a car for our main vehicle. BTW, I'd never compare a CUV to a minivan- our neighbor has one, and it's considerably larger than our Escape. Modern Minivans are closer to 70's full a sized vans that people seem to remember. The only difference is that they are FWD instead of RWD.
CUVs are versatile but I feel like Minivans and Wagons would be better than them in their respective roles while still offering a better driving experience, but that's just a blanket statement. CUVs are a jack of all trades and master of none, which is what bothers me but that's because the cars I have are meant for very specific purposes. I guess if you're cutting down expenses then having 1 car that can do everything is better then having 3-4 cars that do everything seperately.
In reply to RyanGreener :
I very much disagree about wagons vs. CUVs. All a wagon is is a short CUV. Which means it can carry less. Any modern wagon that can tow is offset by the same SUV or CUV that is made on the same platform.
I've had my fleet of cars, and really hate having a truck sitting around doing nothing 90% of the time. And the CUV we have is more capable at towing than 4 of the 5 pick ups we've had- has more power and better brakes.
The frequency I need to get 8ft stuff from the hardware store to home is so rare that it does not bother me that I can't do it. Eventually, I will get my trailer back and just use it.
As for mini-vans, they are too big for us. Again, other than larger SUV's, I don't understand how that's compared to CUVs.
alfadriver said:In reply to RyanGreener :
I very much disagree about wagons vs. CUVs. All a wagon is is a short CUV. Which means it can carry less. Any modern wagon that can tow is offset by the same SUV or CUV that is made on the same platform.
A CUV is a wagon with an uncomfortable driving position, dangerous rear-view visibility (why we have to have backup cameras now), and poor handling.
In reply to Knurled. :
It's all relative. I find the driving position fine. And I honestly don't see the rear vision difference- a wagon has a pretty large blindspot too. What really capable wagon (that can tow, haul equal stuff, etc) handles??? That, and modern CUV's way out handle most classic sports cars. Remember the Jag vs. Minivan article about 10 years ago? So if a CUV has poor handling, most classic sports cars have atrocious handling.
Seems to me that few here have actually driven a CUV for an extended drive. Or a small SUV.
Again, the angst against the cars people actually buy is pretty ironic coming from sports car people.
While it’s the first of the mini vans honestly the first gen Chrysler mini vans compared to modern ones etc are more like the crossovers and cuv we have now. They ofcourse were built on a car chassis that being the infamous k car platform.
In reply to alfadriver :
Are you sure about that wagon being shorter bit?
Using my sisters chevy again as an example. I think it's an equinox, but I'm really not sure, it's ugly, it's not very big but somehow is and it's decidedly cramped. Would something like that stack up better than say a v70?
And not being snarky but actually asking since that was one of the cars she ignored my suggestion of after my mom asked me to help look.
In reply to alfadriver :
To be fair, I've seen wagons that are longer than some CUVs. After all, CUVs come in all sizes and flavors these days (subcompact, compact, midsize and full size). I would know, because my girlfriend was interested in buying a CUV only and I test drove many of them. I don't have any dislike towards CUVs but I like wagons cause they have car-like driving dynamics which is nice for accident avoidance and overall fun. She ended up getting a Soul (which is a wagon and is quite practical). It's pretty fun to drive (it's got turbo and a DCT, but it actually does handle decent for what it is)
Maybe it's a good time to be a sedan buyer? 
In reply to nutherjrfan :
Everybody is having trouble moving their 4 door, mid-size cars.
Fusion sales:
2014- 306,860
2015- 300,170
2016- 265,840
2017- 209,623
2018- On pace for 172,704
Malibu sales:
2014- 188,519
2015- 194,854
2016- 227,881
2017- 185,857
2018- On pace for 136,600
Camry sales:
2014- 428,606
2015- 429,355
2016- 388,618
2017- 387,081
2018- On pace for 363,068
Accord sales:
2014- 388,374
2015- 355,557
2016- 345,225
2017- 322,655
2018- On pace for 246,404
Sonata sales:
2014- 216,936
2015- 213,303
2016- 199,416
2017- 131,803
2018- On pace for 95,300
Optima sales:
2014- 159,020
2015- 159,414
2016- 124,203
2017- 107,493
2018- On pace for 78,440
The same is probably true for small cars too, but I haven't bothered to look up the data. I know that GM has cut Cruze production pretty drastically in recent months, and it's a brand new design that should be selling well.
I still rather have a minivan over a 3 row suv if I needed a people and cargo hauler. Image be damned, the minivan does a lot more better especially with entry and cargo room.
Too bad the smaller sliding door minivans never caught on, coworker has a mazda 5 manual and I really liked it over a smaller suv.
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