Formula 1-2021 Season

In reply to z31maniac :

It's kind of ironic how livid Christian was when Lewis' penalty at Silverstone ended up not meaning anything, but when Max gets penalties that mean nothing, he's suddenly frustrated for his guy.   Seems to me that we should be hearing how mad Toto was that Max's 15 seconds of penalties were worthless, throw away penalties.

Streetwiseguy said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

 

This is just a continuation of Vettel at Red Bull- being a fast driver but a pretty poor racer.

I'm pleased to see someone else make this distinction.  Not everyone gets that.

I disagree, though, with Max not being a good racer.  He is a very good racer, in that he understands the way to set up for a pass, how to hound someone into a mistake and take advantage, and so on. 

What he absolutely is not, is gentlemanly, or concerned with the consequences of his aggressive actions.

Which may make him a not-good racer...

I think Max's problem is that he doesn't understand the concept of measured aggression as it relates to risk management. Yes, aggression is necessary in racing, but Max doesn't seem to be capable of making the distinction between necessary aggression and reckless aggression. 

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

Ok, you can have that memory.  Going back and looking at highlights, I can't find max like antics.  Where he's late divebombing both cars off track.  

It would be nice if he just kept it on track, and even just left room for a tire.  He doesn't even do that.  It's "I'll drive you off the road, and we will both suffer".  

Funny thing, though, IMHO, while Red Bull thought they could use the meduims to win the race via track position, they doomed him to being slow at the end.

In reply to MrFancypants :

By now, I think max thinks that everyone will bow to his on track bullying.  Including his teammates.

alfadriver said:

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

Funny thing, though, IMHO, while Red Bull thought they could use the meduims to win the race via track position, they doomed him to being slow at the end.

That was always the risk. Get the track position (that particular overtake was the best move Max pulled all weekend) and then hope you can pull off a Monaco-style defense with the added threat of being a whackjob when someone is going past. If the race had timed out, they might have pulled it off. But it was just a bit too far. I think Max was suffering on those tires for quite a while, Lewis was clearly faster but was having trouble getting past because that's how F1 works these days.

Nice use of the rules, too - IIRC, Max only did one safety car lap on the hards.

alfadriver said:

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

 

Funny thing, though, IMHO, while Red Bull thought they could use the meduims to win the race via track position, they doomed him to being slow at the end.

I wouldn't regret that decision at all.  What were the odds of one more guy sending it into the wall, giving another red flag, so they could change tires again for free?  Probably worth the risk, because without being ahead of Lewis, no way he wins.

alfadriver said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

By now, I think max thinks that everyone will bow to his on track bullying.  Including his teammates.

He has felt like that for some time, unfortunately. He is destined to be the future of F1 and has been since he started, and nothing will get in the way of that destiny.

MrFancypants said:

Max stated in the post race interview that he knew Lewis was following closely, but he still applied significantly pressure to the brakes anyway. Should this be compared to the Schumacher/Villeneuve incident? As far as I know Schumacher never actually admitted that he tried to ram Villeneuve.

I don't think Schumi ever had to admit he was trying to ram Villeneuve, the on-board camera clearly showed him turning the wheel into the side of his rival. There was never any question as to what was going on which is why the penalty was significant.

That brake check move was some high school bullE36 M3. Max would have been run out of his local karting club races for that.

I think back to how much I hated Vettel at RB, and then warmed up to him at Ferrari, and now like him at AM. I think RB is just a toxic team. Gasley does sooo much better at AT, Riccardo got out, and Albon got boned. That whole team sucks and I feel bad for the drivers. Checo deserves better.

That said, I loathe Mercedes almost as much. Toto is just Horner in a grey and teal shirt. They actively sabotaged Nico, screwed Bottas, and have turned Hamilton from one of my favorite drivers to a guy I can't stand because he parrots Toto's BS.

Can we send both teams (and HAAS too) down to F2 for a couple of years? I'd much rather watch Ferrari (who have turned into a fine team now that they dumped all the old tobacco people), McLaren, Toro Rosso/Alpha Bull Tear whatever the berk it is, and Alpine/Renault race. We've seen masterful drives by LeClerc, Gasley, Norris, and Alonso this season. Vettel too! Yet the only thing anyone ever talks about is the two toxic, cheating, stupid teams that repeatedly endanger everyone with their premadonna self centered egotistical maniac drivers.

Keith Tanner said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

Funny thing, though, IMHO, while Red Bull thought they could use the meduims to win the race via track position, they doomed him to being slow at the end.

That was always the risk. Get the track position (that particular overtake was the best move Max pulled all weekend) and then hope you can pull off a Monaco-style defense with the added threat of being a whackjob when someone is going past. If the race had timed out, they might have pulled it off. But it was just a bit too far. I think Max was suffering on those tires for quite a while, Lewis was clearly faster but was having trouble getting past because that's how F1 works these days.

Nice use of the rules, too - IIRC, Max only did one safety car lap on the hards.

To me, seeing how he was dropping off at lap 15, that was a MASSIVE risk.  It was more a bet on another red flag to get a free pit stop.  And it could have been worse- think if Bottas passed Ocon earlier, and then tracked down max to be within 15 seconds...  Bottas being a lot kinder on his tires than Max was.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

The midfield teams are doing a great job just focusing on themselves.  They don't need to demote the best two teams for that.  They should also focus on raising their own game to match the top teams.

As for Haas- this entire season was planned to play out like that.  If it was not, they would have at least tried to update this car significantly.  Their focus has been on the next car for two seasons.

In reply to alfadriver :

The "top 2" teams need to be demoted because they repeatedly break the rules and actively try to harm other drivers. The other teams can't "up their game" if they are constantly being taken out as collateral between beavis and butthead.

I don't have that big a problem with Max brake checking. He's told to give up the lead and had a tantrum. It's not that crazy. He wrongly assumed the greatest driver to grace the planet was capable of driving around a slowing car. The bigger problem is that they told him to slow before they told Hamilton to pass. Had the officials not berkeleyed up yet another call and told Hamilton's people first he would have expected Max to do something hot headed and avoided him.  The more racing I've watched this year the less I understand how this is supposed to be the greatest series on the planet. 

alfadriver said:

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

If you say so....  

Shall I que up Bottas taking out half the field or do you remember that one? 

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

It's not their fault they each have an extraordinary talented driver. If it was just a matter of the cars Bottas wouldn't be fighting hard for third 20+ seconds behind. 

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

People are lucky I don't run a team. That second car would just be a tank of a jam car every race. The only point in going is to win, not make friends. 

Wally (Forum Supporter) said:

I don't have that big a problem with Max brake checking. He's told to give up the lead and had a tantrum. It's not that crazy. He wrongly assumed the greatest driver to grace the planet was capable of driving around a slowing car. The bigger problem is that they told him to slow before they told Hamilton to pass. Had the officials not berkeleyed up yet another call and told Hamilton's people first he would have expected Max to do something hot headed and avoided him.  The more racing I've watched this year the less I understand how this is supposed to be the greatest series on the planet. 

The collision wasn't because Max was slowing, it's because he backed off into Hamilton and then nailed the brakes.  I don't blame Hamilton for not blasting straight around him as soon as Max lifted - given the nature of that track, there's a good chance there was some sort of carbon fiber explosion going on that he couldn't see yet. And even the best driver in the world doesn't have the reflexes to deal with a car with no brake lights decelerating at 2.4g right in front of you.

But it sounds like Lewis had figured out what Max was trying to do - let him past at the worst possible place so Max could pass right back again, and was refusing to go around. Which is an interesting question for the rules, just how long does the driver in front have to wait for the following car to go around? And why didn't Max get in trouble for waiting so long to give the place back after being told the second time?

I had a taxi driver pull this same sort of move on me years ago, he was backing off and then would accelerate and block me when I tried to go around. We actually came to a full stop a couple of times. When I walked up to talk to him, he thought it was pretty funny until I pointed out that he had a cab number on the back of his car...

In reply to Keith Tanner :

They weren't random drivers in traffic, they've been going at each other like this for a while. Had Hamilton known he was getting the spot back he'd likely anticipated some kind of stupidity and not been in a position to run into another car, or been prepared to dump Max and solve his problems. 

Agreed, if Hamilton had known it would be different. Given the information he had, though, I don't blame him for what happened.

Keith Tanner said:

Agreed, if Hamilton had known it would be different. Given the information he had, though, I don't blame him for what happened.

It's almost too bad that he didn't know- as he would have blasted by making the DRS zone moot.

Keith Tanner said:

MrFancypants said:

Max stated in the post race interview that he knew Lewis was following closely, but he still applied significantly pressure to the brakes anyway. Should this be compared to the Schumacher/Villeneuve incident? As far as I know Schumacher never actually admitted that he tried to ram Villeneuve.

I don't think Schumi ever had to admit he was trying to ram Villeneuve, the on-board camera clearly showed him turning the wheel into the side of his rival. There was never any question as to what was going on which is why the penalty was significant.

That brake check move was some high school bullE36 M3. Max would have been run out of his local karting club races for that.

I think the idea that Max was just trying to be clever by roping Lewis into a pass just before the DRS marker and screwed it up is the most likely thing that happened.

But my logic with the Schumacher comparison is...  Schumacher engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.  Max, admitting to knowing that Lewis was right behind him:  Max engaged a control surface with the knowledge that doing so would place his car where another car was likely to be.

I accept that I'm probably reaching a bit and that it's more likely that he made a stupid move rather than a deliberate one, but his general on-track behavior leaves the door open for speculation.

lol - I watched this race and just thought of the carnage that was going to happen in this thread.

It doesn't disappoint.

Keith Tanner said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

By now, I think max thinks that everyone will bow to his on track bullying.  Including his teammates.

He has felt like that for some time, unfortunately. He is destined to be the future of F1 and has been since he started, and nothing will get in the way of that destiny.

I can think of a few things that I hope will get in the way of that destiny. For 2021 I hope Lewis will. Then if that happens 2022 is a crap shoot, hard to tell who will have a competitive car. If none of them are dominant though Max will have to deal with Leclerc (and Sainz), George Russel and at least Lando. There is a lot of driving talent spread to different teams. Therefore if Max isn't in a king kong car I'm not sure that he is going to be able to have a 10 year run like Lewis just did.

Edit: as much of a Lewis fanboy that I have become he did enjoy some pretty fortunate seats in the show.