Formula 1 2024 Season

In reply to adam525i :

It seems to me that the FIA has backed off on the helmet design restrictions. Special event helmets seem really common these days. I have to admit I always use the car to identify the driver, not the helmet.

In reply to adam525i :

So of Max's rule changes, 9/12 are driving specific, and Lewis 3/8.  And of those 3, ALL of them had to be "clarified" for Max.  Also, the 3 for Lewis were in his first few seasons, whereas Max, well...  He started in 2015, and still gets driver correction rules made for him.

Why do drivers behave badly? Because you let them.

As I steward I would have penalized Norris and Verstappen. Norris gained an advantage off track and Verstappen forced a driver off track. The rules are clear in that respect. Verstappen also exceeded the track limits.

In reply to adam525i :

Thanks for taking the time to put both of these together. Regardless of who you root for as a fan of the sport it is fun to read about rule changes and what drove them. I appreciate you putting in the effort on this!

NYN

NY Nick said:

In reply to adam525i :

Thanks for taking the time to put both of these together. Regardless of who you root for as a fan of the sport it is fun to read about rule changes and what drove them. I appreciate you putting in the effort on this!

NYN

Just a copy paste from Reddit, I don't have the time or memory to put something like that together!

Just thought it was interesting and worth sharing.

I wish "track limits" would be defined by grass or gravel.

I know there was a push for large runoff areas because fans (and likely more importantly, manufacturers & sponsors) hated seeing a favorite or competitive car/driver out of a race at Turn 1, Lap 1, etc.  There are safety concerns as well, but I really like the older, non-F1 certified tracks.  VIR is a good example.  You exceed track limits there and you're likely going for a long ride downhill through the grass in the Roller Coaster and Hog Pen areas.

That's your punishment for exceeding track limits.  No steward needs to assess a time penalty during or post race.

But the horse has already left the barn on that topic. 

In reply to adam525i :

It was worth sharing.  Thanks.

Coniglio Rampante said:

I wish "track limits" would be defined by grass or gravel.

I know there was a push for large runoff areas because fans (and likely more importantly, manufacturers & sponsors) hated seeing a favorite or competitive car/driver out of a race at Turn 1, Lap 1, etc.  There are safety concerns as well, but I really like the older, non-F1 certified tracks.  VIR is a good example.  You exceed track limits there and you're likely going for a long ride downhill through the grass in the Roller Coaster and Hog Pen areas.

That's your punishment for exceeding track limits.  No steward needs to assess a time penalty during or post race.

But the horse has already left the barn on that topic. 

That was the best part about the 2020 season. All those weird tracks that weren't just the same old Tilke ones, and they usually weren't just an autocross course painted on a giant parking lot.

I agree if you want drivers to respect track limits, make those limits disrespect their car. Gravel runoffs are perfect for this and pretty safe, unlike the street track concrete walls.

maschinenbau said:

I agree if you want drivers to respect track limits, make those limits disrespect their car. Gravel runoffs are perfect for this and pretty safe, unlike the street track concrete walls.

If drivers and teams are complaining that it was hurting the car, then you are doing it right.  It's still better than running into the concrete wall.

I would like to see both drivers get a penalty in the norris verstappen situation.

Basically, get a penalty for not leaving room on the outside (if driver goes all 4 off track)- verstappen.  And norris getting the penalty for gaining a lasting advantage.

It should curtail the divebomb and don't make the corner defense.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Agreed,and continue to hand out penalties untill they resume racing as it should be.

 They manage to (mostly)stay off the walls and within track limit at wall/armco lined tracks so hammer them hard untill they treat the white lines like a wall.

  Also the younger racers watch and learn from these guys so its a lasting impact for yrs to come imho.

maschinenbau said:

I agree if you want drivers to respect track limits, make those limits disrespect their car. Gravel runoffs are perfect for this and pretty safe, unlike the street track concrete walls.

The problem with this is that purpose-built circuits want to be able to host motorcycle events too, and gravel runoffs are far from perfect for motorcycles.

Also, 20 years ago we had a lot more gravel which led to a lot of cars getting beached the way Hamilton did last race in Austin, often 5-8 per race.  Fans often leave or stop watching when their favorite driver is out of the race and this is not good for either concessions sales or TV advertiser ratings.  So the commercial side of F1 tends to oppose having too many gravel traps.

wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see both drivers get a penalty in the norris verstappen situation.

Basically, get a penalty for not leaving room on the outside (if driver goes all 4 off track)- verstappen.  And norris getting the penalty for gaining a lasting advantage.

It should curtail the divebomb and don't make the corner defense.

IMHO F1 needs to quit with the "5 second time penalty" thing.  Make the minimum penalty a drive-thru, which has to be taken within 1 or 2 laps of the decision.  The whole idea of "I'll break a rule but it's worth it becasue I can gain more time than the penalty costs me" is just wrong.

adam525i said:

Incident: During the race, Lewis Hamilton crashed and required assistance to be lifted back onto the track using a tractor.

BTW, Hamilton was not the first instance of this.  There were one or two cases in the early 2000s where Schumacher's car was pushed out of a gravel trap by marshals for "safety reasons" and he was allowed to continue the race.  Of course, I vaguely recall that this might have been an Italian marshal at Monza approved by Italian stewards while he was driving a Ferrari, but... :)

wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see both drivers get a penalty in the norris verstappen situation.

Basically, get a penalty for not leaving room on the outside (if driver goes all 4 off track)- verstappen.  And norris getting the penalty for gaining a lasting advantage.

It should curtail the divebomb and don't make the corner defense.

If Lando had given the spot back right away, does the hive think Max would have been penalized? 

dyintorace said:

wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see both drivers get a penalty in the norris verstappen situation.

Basically, get a penalty for not leaving room on the outside (if driver goes all 4 off track)- verstappen.  And norris getting the penalty for gaining a lasting advantage.

It should curtail the divebomb and don't make the corner defense.

If Lando had given the spot back right away, does the hive think Max would have been penalized? 

AIUI, the way the rules are currently written, Verstappen didn't break any of them.  He dive bombed to be first to the apex which gave him the right to the corner and meant that he wasn't required to leave room at the exit.

A lot of people are arguing that that rule is stupid and should be changed.

dyintorace said:

If Lando had given the spot back right away, does the hive think Max would have been penalized? 

Lando's conduct should be irrelevant to Verstappen; Did Max force a competitor wide? Yes. Did he exceed track limits? Yes

The simply comitted violations at the same time; no different than if Lando had run Max off the track at the next corner.

Verstappen should have recived a penalty regardless.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

dyintorace said:

wvumtnbkr said:

I would like to see both drivers get a penalty in the norris verstappen situation.

Basically, get a penalty for not leaving room on the outside (if driver goes all 4 off track)- verstappen.  And norris getting the penalty for gaining a lasting advantage.

It should curtail the divebomb and don't make the corner defense.

If Lando had given the spot back right away, does the hive think Max would have been penalized? 

AIUI, the way the rules are currently written, Verstappen didn't break any of them.  He dive bombed to be first to the apex which gave him the right to the corner and meant that he wasn't required to leave room at the exit.

A lot of people are arguing that that rule is stupid and should be changed.

 

Max didn't leave a car width on the track.  So IF (and that's a MASSIVE IF) Lando stayed with his wheel mid Max, and let him get pushed off- then there would have been an honest discussion of Max forced him off or not.  They would have looked at Max's attempt to make the corner and leave space or not.

If Lando let him pass back, I kind of think that argument would have been totally lost thanks to the pass and concession.  So I don't think it would have changed anything.

Hopefully Lando can understand what Max is doing, and what rules he is taking advantage of- and try to use them back at him.  Forced off and maintain position is not the same as forced off and making the pass - no matter if he gives the position back or not.

The other think I hope Lando can see- the damage his (the McLaren) aggressive driving is doing to the RBR.  We saw Max drop off before Lando got to him, and making him take corners in a way he doesn't want to, especially dive bombing a corner, really can do a number on the tire.  So even if he was forced off and nothing happened WRT a penalty, the Red Bull was really having a tough time as they got into that battle- so he would have a far better chance to push him into the any of the passing zones.  Heck, even that fun one two or three corners past the long straigh (which Lando never really gave an honest attempt to do).

The problem is, you don't NEED to leave room if you are first to the corner (apex).  It's your corner take any line you want.  Leaving racing room doesn't apply.

That needs changed to always leave racing room (if there is significant overlap, say opponents front tire in front of your rear wheel) as if the white line was a wall.

In reply to johndej :

https://youtu.be/TmZ0e9s0w-s?si=KzaMiohuzJLV565K

That is a great clip-

It looks to me like Hamilton wanted Max on the inside and placed his car so that Max would take the inside line because he knew Max would brake late to 'claim the apex' and force Hamilton off the track and take the place because of the 'grey area' in the rules. So Hamilton set his trap Max obliged and Hamilton punted the out of grip defenses not gonna make the corner Max off with a well placed front tire. Hamilton dictated the outcome. Contrast that with the US GP and Max from the defensive position in the braking area instructing Lando to go outside with his early defensive move.  Lando obliged and Max ran him off the road. Then McLaren probably made a bad decision not to have Lando give up the spot-  although if Lando would have turned it up to 11 immediately maybe he would have ended up over 5 seconds ahead of Max instead of 4.xxx.  But no matter how I look at it, Max and red Bull are a ruthless rules exploitative machine creating value for their corporation and it's shareholders and stakeholders.  Lando and Mclaren are not there yet with their silly democratic strategy conversations over the radio and hopeful reliance on the race stewarts (what an abysmal job) granting them the place.  Sure there is drive to 'win', but 'sportsmanship' has nothing at all to do with it for Redbull and I guess they should be congratulated for living in the real world.

There is no money paid to the teams for winning the driver's championship, only the constructors - so if I were McLaren I would simply concentrate on putting as many points on the board as possible, and always finish ahead of Perez with both cars, and as close to or ahead of Max.

Take the Constructor's championship and the money and not look back.

Plus too and also, the winner of the driver's championship pays a hefty license fee for the next season, based on the points they scored.

wvumtnbkr said:

The problem is, you don't NEED to leave room if you are first to the corner (apex).  It's your corner take any line you want.  Leaving racing room doesn't apply.

That needs changed to always leave racing room (if there is significant overlap, say opponents front tire in front of your rear wheel) as if the white line was a wall.

If the trailing car has their tires in front of the rear tires and has to make the corner, it would be tough to say the second car does not get space at all.  At least there would have to be conversation to see if the "leading" car could even make the corner by the move.  That discussion has happened more than once- and the penalty has not been consistent.  

At least it would be something that could be asked about, whereas once Lando made the off track pass- that was just obvious as a penalty.  No point in looking at any other problems to talk about.

BTW, the actual rule does not give an advantage to the car in front or back- it says that the car off the racing line (whichever one) has to give space as they return to the racing line:

APPENDIX L INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE

CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS

2. Overtaking, car control and track limits

b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

In reply to Shaun :

Exactly he tries the same e36 M3 since he's been in the series, I'll pass or one or both of us will crash. I 100% don't support this but ol Bernie said the sport would be better if more drivers died or were injured on track. There's a not insignificant part of the motorsports fanbase that agrees and want more crashing. There's the win, beat your rival, or you suck faction that is big too.

MiniDave said:

There is no money paid to the teams for winning the driver's championship, only the constructors - so if I were McLaren I would simply concentrate on putting as many points on the board as possible, and always finish ahead of Perez with both cars, and as close to or ahead of Max.

There may not be any direct money from FOM, but there is prestige and that translates into higher book rates for sponsors.